Is doing M&P Cheating? Like a Box Cake Mix?

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Chrishaglerr

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Okay I'll be the guy that says it.
This is just wrong. Can you make a M&P that's 100% cocoa butter? You can with CP.

This is past wrong, it's false advertising and most of the people here I know try to stay away from these claims. When you make them you make your soap a drug - do you follow the regulations for drugs? Has this been independently tested as a drug would be?

There's no definition for "natural", and I'm sorry to say that adding oils to M&P soaps does diminish the lather. Whether it's enough to matter is definitely up for debate but the same is true of CP. Oil does not have the surface tension to hold bubbles; it will dampen the lather of any soap. Soap is meant to solubilize oils, so as long as you have enough surfactant to dissolve and suspend the oils you're fine, but you are using up those finite properties.


I agree with all of this - but please, don't try to sell us a box of foo. I respect all soapers, M&P, CP, HP, CPOP, IHOP, whatever. I hold all soapers to the same standards though. If what you say is untrue, you should expect to be called out on it - here especially. If you don't realize what you say is untrue or potentially dangerous (in a litigious or health way) then you will get corrected.

I didn't mean it as it WILL work to fight eczema or anything, I'm just saying it has been known to work for my customers. Should've been more clear on that one haha. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything, I was just simply adding what I've found out over the years of my own personal experience. But everyone has their own opinions and I respect that :)
 

Seawolfe

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My husbands eczema cleared up when he was just using my plain old castiles and bastiles and whatever lard soap is ready to go (and when I stopped using commercial laundry detergent). Id be interested to see if your customers had the same happy results just using the plain M&P with no additives, just wondering...
 

lisamaliga

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I feel like it all depends on how you make your melt and pour soaps. Anyone can just melt some, add color, then pour into a mold.

All in all, I think M&P is worth what you make of it. Actually, M&P AND cp is worth what you make of it. I just believe a lot of M&P diapers [soapers] are afraid to break the rules and explore as cp soapers do. The whole "1 tablespoon of oils per pound of M&P because adding more will cut the lather GREATLY" isn't true at all. I add wayy more than that and my lather actually improves (keeping it natural as well).
Unfortunately, there have been people crafting melt and pour soap using metal pans as a double boiler rather than stainless steel. It will cause wrinkles in the soap. Another case was someone actually using a plastic container over as a double boiler and wondering why it melted. There are other examples--both online and in 'real life' -- that are equally worthy of a Darwin Soap Award, but I won't go into it here. My opinion is that not just anyone can craft M&P soap.

With a high quality base you can add some extras, like fixed oils and butters, and not have them separate from the soap base or alter the lather-ability.

Of course I'm a huge fan of m&p soap and I usually refer to it as soap crafting rather than soap making as it's not made from scratch.
 

Lynusann

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You know I've never really messed with M&P soaps short of making a few embeds here and there. The thought of it honestly just sort of bored me. But I scored a huge lot of M&P base for dirt cheap from someone leaving the craft and I have to say I have a whole new respect for M&P soap crafting. I spent this weekend doing a bunch of stuff both in basic molds and trying to create cool effects in my loaf molds and wow did some of it kick my butt. It's just as much about timing as with CP but for different reasons.

If you don't have the temp just right you'll either end up with bubbles all over the top and throughout the soap, or you start getting the hardened film across the top and have to remelt. If you remelt too many times it starts to dry out. And when pouring over anything at all you have to remember to spray the heck out of it with alcohol. Embeds will float and move on you no matter how well you think you have them anchored down.

The one nice thing I think I like about M&P though is that with FO's and colorants - what you see is what you get! Not always so with CP. I think depending on what you do with M&P, there can be some real challenges with it
 

BWsoaps

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You have to remember it does not really matter as customers won't know the difference and all they will see is soap at the end of the day.

In the UK, if your on a market. They only let one person with the same stuff on. So there would never be to soap stands next to each other, that's just silly
 

Chrishaglerr

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Okay I'll be the guy that says it.
This is just wrong. Can you make a M&P that's 100% cocoa butter? You can with CP.

This is past wrong, it's false advertising and most of the people here I know try to stay away from these claims. When you make them you make your soap a drug - do you follow the regulations for drugs? Has this been independently tested as a drug would be?

There's no definition for "natural", and I'm sorry to say that adding oils to M&P soaps does diminish the lather. Whether it's enough to matter is definitely up for debate but the same is true of CP. Oil does not have the surface tension to hold bubbles; it will dampen the lather of any soap. Soap is meant to solubilize oils, so as long as you have enough surfactant to dissolve and suspend the oils you're fine, but you are using up those finite properties.

I agree with all of this - but please, don't try to sell us a box of foo. I respect all soapers, M&P, CP, HP, CPOP, IHOP, whatever. I hold all soapers to the same standards though. If what you say is untrue, you should expect to be called out on it - here especially. If you don't realize what you say is untrue or potentially dangerous (in a litigious or health way) then you will get corrected.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I wasn't trying to make a claim on here, maybe I didn't type it out as I was thinking. Whenever I sell my soaps, I list the the oils and what not used in that bar of soap "have been known to help with such and such, but isn't proven", which isn't making a legal claim.

I agree that adding too much oil will obviously diminish lather eventually. All I was saying that I don't agree with the "1 Tablespoon" per pound method. It's all about getting creative and I think by putting a limit on new soap makers by telling them that anything over 1 Tablespoon will diminish lather isn't right. I use around 3-4 tablespoons and I don't see a decrease at all. That being said, I'm sure if I use 6-8 tablespoons I will see it diminish.

Lastly, I want trying to sell anyone a box of "foo". Simply stating my opinions based on my own personally experience which may help some people on here. :)
 

kchaystack

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I wasn't trying to make a claim on here, maybe I didn't type it out as I was thinking. Whenever I sell my soaps, I list the the oils and what not used in that bar of soap "have been known to help with such and such, but isn't proven", which isn't making a legal claim.
That is not how the FDA sees it, unfortunately.

I am sure the more legal types on here will chime in - but it does infer treatment of something.

Now, the FDA do not have the manpower to police this - which is why so many get away with claims and poor labeling. But if you have an unfortunate run in with a litigation happy person, you will be in for a bad shock.
 

Saponista

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I would worry that adding all that oil would lead to the soap going rancid much more quickly as well as reducing lather.
 

rparrny

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I was having a discussion at a local craft fair with fellow soap makers. On the left side of the room they had a stand up with M&P Soaps, Lovely indeed...But the Price they listed was exactly the same price as the Cold Process Soap stand right next to them... Yes, I would LOVE to here what ya'll think :) Is M&P Cheating?
Capitalism at it's very best!
Having made both I can tell you that both can be very time consuming. I have seen CP soaps that I wouldn't pay 5 bucks for and M&P that were worth much more.
That being said, assuming the the CP vendor had some attractive, good quality soaps...I would think any CP soapmaker that sells would know that a M&P maker would very likely be there as well. If I were selling...I would have a BIG display discussing the differences between the two and alerting potential buyers to ask whether the soap they are about to buy is CP or M&P. Some people really don't care, they want a pretty soap that they can display or has some quality about it they want...if they can find that in a pretty M&P they are just fine with it. On the other hand, some people want the qualities of hand made CP soaps...maybe they don't even know the difference...which is why EDUCATION IS EVERYTHING.
That the M&P vendors were snide and rude? Most M&P vendors are more artists then soap makers....artists tend to be a bit more...well I'm just gonna stop there before I offend anyone...
M&P can make some stunning beautiful soaps that ya just can't do with CP...just the fact that it wasn't made from scratch doesn't diminish it's value IMHO.
 

soapdrool

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Its a shame you had this experience. I make MP soaps and I have been a "neighbor" to CP/HP soap makers many times at craft/art fairs and I always make it a point to say hello to my fellow crafter. I've never had a CP/HP soap maker feel upset that I'm their neighbor. The last craft fair I attended I was a neighbor to a wonderful lady with beautiful CP soaps. By the end of the fair we both bartered with each other. It seems that you may be siding one way, everyone has their own right to their thoughts and opinions but I'm positive most people that design or make MP soaps are not "cold" and most take their art very seriously. There is enough room for both works of art.
 
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The Efficacious Gentleman

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To recap my position for those new to the thread who haven't read it all -

If you are selling m&p, a base which you bought, then you are not making soap. Making soap is combining lye and oils together - if you haven't done that in producing these bars, then you haven't made soap.

The base that you buy IS soap - you don't have to do anything else to it to make soap.

Now, I do think the things that people do with m&p is amazing, truly. I'm not saying it is a lower class or not as involved or anything like that. In many ways it seems to be much harder than making soap.

But anytime I see someone marketing their m&p soaps as 'handmade' when they have not actually combined the oil and lye for these bars, I consider that to be misleading.
 

kapesta

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M&P is not "cheating"

The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.
I research everything that I put into my M&P soaps. I have a background in Aromatherapy, so every additive is natural. I use EO's for both their therapeutic properties and fragrance. Every color comes from a plant source that is beneficial for the skin, in conjunction with the EO's. I spend many hours researching and creating my combinations.
So, in that regard, I spend as much time as a CP soap maker. I am sure that many people don't put the time and effort into their M&P, but that is their choice. I am proud of every product that I offer my customers.
 

Dana89

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The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.
KAPESTA- with all due respect, I have to say what you just wrote is what bothers CP soapmakers about Melt&Pour.
What is it you think CP soapmakers have to add to our soap that M&P do not? there isn,t any more ingredients in basic CP that in MP. MP actually has more, there is a chemical added to it to make it melt like it does.
Yes your base was made with LYE just like CP. Then it has added chemicals that do not go into CP, if that is your main concern you may want to take up CP. I am not saying that MP is bad, I know some are high quality indeed.
If you want to drive a soap maker crazy, start telling your customers that your soap is not made with lye. Look on the label of your M&P, does it say saponified coconut oil, olive oil, ect? That means it was made with lye, otherwise you could not legally call your product soap.
I wrote earlier in this forum that I haven't seen many complaints about MP itself, most are complaints are about mis-informed MP soapers telling their customers that their soap contains no lye, but the man/woman over there selling CP uses lye.
If you are already selling, just please read more on the product you are selling. You should know these things if your selling to people.
Again I hope i don,t sound rude. I am not trying to be and I wish you luck on your soaping endeavors.
 

Marley

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All soap is made with Lye, the completed product no longer contains Lye. M&P contains chemicals that allows it to be heated and reheated repeatedly. CP soap does not. I do not consider M&P handmade, no more than I would consider a body butter made using a prepared base handmade, or a lip balm using a prepared base handmade. I do not consider oil and sugar in a jar to be a sugar scrub, I think we can do so much better than that. I'm a purist, and I think some M&P is really pretty and I don't consider it cheating but I don't consider it handmade either. But when I see people selling a body butter made with a prepared base (they simply add water to a prepared base in varying degrees to make it either a lotion or a cream) I think that's cheating.
 

lsg

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Perhaps we can consider it semi-handmade like the cooking show. I don't consider it cheating as long as the soap is clearly labeled Melt and Pour or "Glycerine Bar."
 

dixiedragon

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The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.
Seriously? Do you really not understand that lye was used to make your M&P base?

Here are the ingredients for Brambleberry's MP:
Common Name: Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin (kosher, of vegetable origin), Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps)
 

IrishLass

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When it comes to making M&P, I like the term 'hand-crafted' instead of 'handmade'.....because you are taking a ready-made base that somebody else made, and you are crafting it into your own design scheme.

I don't look at it as 'cheating' as much as I look at it as a whole different art-form that takes a fair bit of talent and creativity to be able to turn it into something beautiful.......many times quite stunningly beautiful I might add.

The only time I would look at it as cheating is if the person crafting the pre-made base is advertising it as something they made completely from 'scratch' themselves when all they did was use a ready-to-use-as-is base made by somebody else.

But if they actually happened to have made the base from scratch themselves (which one can indeed do at home with the right ingredients), only then would I consider it 'handmade'.


IrishLass :)
 
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