I was taught the 20 second rule by a front line army medic named Dad. Lather well and then clean from wrist to finger tips. I can't remember how old I was but I do know I couldn't read or write when he taught me.
Our soap and the Corona Virus
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beckster51
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Yes, I understand that he was primarily talking about his bar soap, but he made a statement that germs cannot live in/on soap. I think my point was that basically Alton should stay away from giving healthcare advice. I understand people are well intentioned, but that is not his area of expertise. And yes, you can culture bacteria and viruses off a bar of wet soap. He says it has not been done, it has. I know everyone is stressed out, so let's not get into an argument. The public should be taking advice from healthcare experts only, not celebrities, IMHO.
The unfortunate thing is, though, that the "public" will listen to celebrities where they might not listen to healthcare experts as readily. Celebrities are "trusted" because they're known. The healthcare experts could take note of that and start using the celebrities to spread their message.
A
amd
I have been looking for evidence to support this and haven't found it. Do you have a source?
What I have found is several online articles making similar claims that bar soap harbors virus/bacteria/germs - but most of them don't define what type of soap or if it is all inclusive. The closest to a reference of soap type I could find is below
https://www.self.com/story/bar-soap-sanitary-or-germy
in this paragraph
However, we know that surfactant soaps also have a lower pH. Now, my little soapmaker mind is thinking... if the reason that milk, food purees, or other finely ground food additives don't spoil in soap is because of the pH, how does that affect virus/bacteria/germs? And that's where the limit of my science reasoning ends. I don't know enough about viruses or germs to definitively say if pH has an impact, or even if the pH on the surface of a used soap bar remains the same as unused soap. But what I would really be interested in seeing is data or summary of information collected from handmade lye based soap.
Sally Scheibner
Well-Known Member
I’m almost out of sodium hydroxide aka that evil word , LYE. Sooo many lay people run when I try to explain the science behind saponification. So... we NEED to come up with a concise easy to understand ‘sign’ statement on how soap is safe to use & WORKS to dissolve emplode & destroy the surface cell membranes on contact!!!
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The folks at mu local Ace Hardware will get lye from the back room for me.
Then wait at the cash register to see how many bars of soap I brought with me.
It's not bribery, I swear...
Yes, use distilled water or some other approved liquid like vinegar.
Drinking water can contain trace minerals and metals that interact in undesirable ways with the lye.
David James
Member
Yeah, that definitely needs to be worked out. Real soap can only be made with something strongly alkaline. In the US it is part of the legal definition of soap. Soap has been made like this for about 4000 years.
I think we need to come up with some good comparisons to things that people understand.
Is there lye in your soap? Is there boiling water in your jello? Is there high pressure, high temperature steam in popcorn? Is there dangerous bacteria in chicken?
The answer is no. These things were temporarily there and consumed or killed or otherwise just all gone.
Just need a comparison to some parallel thing that they already understand.
More ideas?
rdc1978
Well-Known Member
I went to Target on Monday right before our shelter in place, and I was shocked to see that they were starting to run out of regular bar soap (but not dove for some mysterious reason). They still had a good amount of liquid bath soap, but the bar soap was really low. So there may be some wisdom in what you've heard!
I'm sitting on a gold mine, but can't even leave my house!
That's interesting, the first (and only) book I was given said filtered water and so I thought purified and spring water were fine. I've always used those and never thought they were a problem.
I'll have to keep it up because the only way I'll get water now is to take empty gallon containers to the refill station at sprouts.
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I wash taught to wash my hands properly from an army/VA nurse named Mama. I was taught how to properly wash for 20 seconds by singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (or the ABC song or Happy Birthday) twice. I was able to completely skip the whole handwashing unit of nursing school by properly demonstrating it on day 1. The instructor asked if anyone thought they knew how (with a smirk on her face), and I raised my hand. She later told me that in all her 24 years of making that offer, I was the first person to actually do it.
As far as the length of time goes, each 5 seconds is one part of the task.
First 5 seconds, rub your palms and fingers together.
Second part, rub the back of the left hand/thumb for 2.5, rub the back of the right hand/thumb for 2.5 seconds.
Third, interlace your fingers and rub with one thumb closest to you for 2.5 seconds, change positions so that the other thumb is closer to you for the next 2.5 seconds.
Last, cup one hand so that the tips of your fingers and then the flats of your nails rub across the other palm, then alternate hands for the last 5 seconds.
If you sing while you are doing that, the part of the verse when you switch tasks becomes so ingrained in your brain, you no longer need a real timer.
Great tutorial!
beckster51
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Let me start my reply by stating that I do not intend to be snarky in any way in this reply. It is often difficult to write down information in a way that other people do not take offense, so please don't. Let me state my credentials. I am an advanced degree nurse who has worked in every specialty over the course of my lengthy career except OB and peds. As a Chief Nursing Officer and Chief Operating Officer, I supervised many departments in the hospital where this occurred. We had an outbreak that we traced back to one specific patient, and we were able to culture the offending bacteria from the liquid soap and the bar soap that the patient had been using. While we reported this to the powers that be, we did not publish an article about it. So, I don't have a source for the fact that bacteria and germs can live on soap, but I have personally experienced it. You can certainly go to the NIH, NLM, NCBI, or CDC websites and research it, but I am not going to do that. It's easy for me to fall into the research vortex, and I currently do not have time to do that.
I am personally offended when people, who have the ability to get attention through their celebrity, try to educate people about things they know little about. Everyone should stick to giving advice about what s/he has been educated to do. ( I did not go to the CIA, so I am not likely to do a video telling people how to cook, although I am a decent home cook.) He did not mention some very important things in the video, such as friction, which is one of the more important aspects of handwashing. He also makes mistakes in recontaminating his hands during the video after he has washed. For example, if you pick up a ziplock bag off an extremely nasty bathroom counter in a public place, you have just recontaminated your hands! That's a very bad idea! He has just "undone" his handwashing. I could give other examples, but that's enough critique.
Bacteria and germs do not behave alike, and individual strains of either may not behave like other germs and bacteria. I don't think that it is a frequent occurrence that bacteria that are of any harm are living on soap, but it is a capital idea to keep your soap dry between uses and not to put it in a closed container while wet. It is also not a good idea to deal in absolutes and state that germs and bacteria cannot live somewhere. They are everywhere! And while it is not likely to find them in some environments, it is foolhardy to say it can never happen. I'm glad that people found his video helpful, but he is not an expert, and he has said and exhibited some things that are untrue or of very poor technique. If you cannot tell that this whole issue is a pet peeve of mine, you haven't been paying attention - LOL. It can be dangerous to make assumptions and give inaccurate information to the public.
@amd -- "...I have been looking for evidence to support this and haven't found it. Do you have a source?..."
There's a good body of reputable studies that show microbial organisms can and do live on bar soap. By my use of "soap" I mean true soap made with lye and fat, not a syndet cleanser. Whether the presence of microorganisms on bar soap is a problem is another story -- the studies I have don't try to measure that risk.
My opinions, and only my opinions -- Bar soap is fine for routine hand washing. For hand washing in high risk situations where your hands must absolutely be as sanitary as possible, bar soap is not acceptable. I'd also say liquid soaps or cleansers in refillable dispensers are also not acceptable. Contamination in refillable dispensers has definitely been linked to health problems at least in a hospital setting -- I seem to recall our Susie has personal experience with that happening. It looks to me like a cleanser dispensed from a sealed one-time-use sanitary container is the only acceptable cleanser in a high-risk situation.
Here are a few studies that report finding microbes on bar soap. I'm sure you can find more if you look. Bolding and comments in brackets [ ] are mine --
"...microorganisms, which are ubiquitous in the environment, have been isolated from in-use [Dial] soap bars... [Our] findings, along with other published reports, show that little hazard exists in routine handwashing with previously used soap bars and support the frequent use of soap and water for handwashing to prevent the spread of disease...."
Heinze JE, Yackovitch F. Washing with contaminated bar soap is unlikely to transfer bacteria. Epidem. Inf. (1988), 101, 135-142.
"...bar soaps are in direct contact with bacteria on skin, and organisms were found to survive on bar soaps which were continually in use.... Compared with bacterial populations on hands, which may range up to 105 organisms per cm2 of skin (9), the numbers of bacteria found on bar soaps [Dial and Ivory] were not large. Furthermore, the populations did not progressively increase throughout the 1-week test period, indicating that the organisms were continually being removed, either by self-sterilization or mechanically.... Soaps containing antibacterials were as susceptible to bacterial carriage as those without...."
McBride ME. Microbial Flora of In-Use Soap Products. APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, Aug. 1984, p. 338-341
"Bar and liquid soaps from 26 public lavatories were investigated for microbial colonies. Of 84 samples
obtained from bar soaps [types unknown], 100% yielded positive cultures; liquid soaps were essentially negative (3/39).... . Qualitatively, bar soaps were found to harbour 2 to 9 different genera of organisms per bar...."
Kabara JJ, Brady MB. Contamination of bar soaps under "in-use" conditions. J Environ Pathol Toxicol Oncol. 1984 Jul; 5(4-5):1-14.
"...Bar soap from 18 different dental clinics were investigated for microbial contamination, while it was "in-use". Of the 32 samples obtained from the bar soap [type unknown], 100% yielded positive culture. A total of 8 different genera of organisms were isolated. Each bar soap was found to harbor 2-5 different genera of micro organisms. Heavily used soap had more micro organisms compared to less used soap. The microbial load of the "in-use" bar soap constituted a mixed flora of gram positive, gram negative, aerobes, anaerobes, and fungi...."
Hegde P P, Andrade A T, Bhat K. Microbial contamination of "In use" bar soap in dental clinics. Indian J Dent Res 2006; 17:70
There's a good body of reputable studies that show microbial organisms can and do live on bar soap. By my use of "soap" I mean true soap made with lye and fat, not a syndet cleanser. Whether the presence of microorganisms on bar soap is a problem is another story -- the studies I have don't try to measure that risk.
My opinions, and only my opinions -- Bar soap is fine for routine hand washing. For hand washing in high risk situations where your hands must absolutely be as sanitary as possible, bar soap is not acceptable. I'd also say liquid soaps or cleansers in refillable dispensers are also not acceptable. Contamination in refillable dispensers has definitely been linked to health problems at least in a hospital setting -- I seem to recall our Susie has personal experience with that happening. It looks to me like a cleanser dispensed from a sealed one-time-use sanitary container is the only acceptable cleanser in a high-risk situation.
Here are a few studies that report finding microbes on bar soap. I'm sure you can find more if you look. Bolding and comments in brackets [ ] are mine --
"...microorganisms, which are ubiquitous in the environment, have been isolated from in-use [Dial] soap bars... [Our] findings, along with other published reports, show that little hazard exists in routine handwashing with previously used soap bars and support the frequent use of soap and water for handwashing to prevent the spread of disease...."
Heinze JE, Yackovitch F. Washing with contaminated bar soap is unlikely to transfer bacteria. Epidem. Inf. (1988), 101, 135-142.
"...bar soaps are in direct contact with bacteria on skin, and organisms were found to survive on bar soaps which were continually in use.... Compared with bacterial populations on hands, which may range up to 105 organisms per cm2 of skin (9), the numbers of bacteria found on bar soaps [Dial and Ivory] were not large. Furthermore, the populations did not progressively increase throughout the 1-week test period, indicating that the organisms were continually being removed, either by self-sterilization or mechanically.... Soaps containing antibacterials were as susceptible to bacterial carriage as those without...."
McBride ME. Microbial Flora of In-Use Soap Products. APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, Aug. 1984, p. 338-341
"Bar and liquid soaps from 26 public lavatories were investigated for microbial colonies. Of 84 samples
obtained from bar soaps [types unknown], 100% yielded positive cultures; liquid soaps were essentially negative (3/39).... . Qualitatively, bar soaps were found to harbour 2 to 9 different genera of organisms per bar...."
Kabara JJ, Brady MB. Contamination of bar soaps under "in-use" conditions. J Environ Pathol Toxicol Oncol. 1984 Jul; 5(4-5):1-14.
"...Bar soap from 18 different dental clinics were investigated for microbial contamination, while it was "in-use". Of the 32 samples obtained from the bar soap [type unknown], 100% yielded positive culture. A total of 8 different genera of organisms were isolated. Each bar soap was found to harbor 2-5 different genera of micro organisms. Heavily used soap had more micro organisms compared to less used soap. The microbial load of the "in-use" bar soap constituted a mixed flora of gram positive, gram negative, aerobes, anaerobes, and fungi...."
Hegde P P, Andrade A T, Bhat K. Microbial contamination of "In use" bar soap in dental clinics. Indian J Dent Res 2006; 17:70
beckster51
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Thank you, Dee Anna for providing good information! He also said that antibacterial soap is of no use, and that is not true either. It depends... as so many things in life do. As usual, you have provided data driven information, and that is why you are so respected by the members of this forum.
I think it's been pretty soundly proven that typical antibacterial ingredients such as triclosan are ineffective. Even the McBride study I referenced above found "...Soaps containing antibacterials were as susceptible to bacterial carriage as those without..."
If you're talking about antibacterial soap or cleansers used in a hospital setting, that's another story, and I can't speak to that.
If you're talking about antibacterial soap or cleansers used in a hospital setting, that's another story, and I can't speak to that.
beckster51
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Yes, I think it has been proven that they have limited use in hospitals, but general use is not useful and is discouraged.
Y'all are fixating on whether or not "germs" can live on or in soap (they can, it has been proven of all types of soap) and completely missing the point that when used properly, even "contaminated" soap can and does remove 99.9% of "germs" from hands if you wash your hands with it using proper handwashing technique. It is the surfactant property mixed with the friction and length of handwashing that does the trick. This is why handwashing works and continues to be the #1 method of removing "germs" from hands for all healthcare institutions. And it is why I didn't have a single drop of alcohol gel in my house until all this started. I now own some, and use it frequently at work, and we both use it when we go to the store for anything.
This is correct. When working in my former life as an RN, our Infectious Disease Nurse talked about why we moved to liquid hand soap in dispensers, and it was because bar soap, left wet and pooled in a non-draining soap dish, did in fact harbor non-desirable microbial growth. This was back in the 80's or 90's when my hospital made that switch from bar soap.
It is another reason it is so important to use a soap saver type of soap dish so that the soap dries completely between uses.
I have also noticed that more intensive handwashing even with a soap saver some bars of soap seem to remain more soggy than others. So I have switched between bars at my DIL's house, when I find one bar it too soggy. (I am Temporarily between San Antonio & the Houston area because of my granddaughter's school closure.)
Speaking for myself, I'm not fixating on "germs" on bar soap. I'm just trying to provide references to answer a question that someone asked.
There's a bar of soap at every sink of my house, and I don't give a hoot about what microbes happen to be living on the surface of the soap. What I do give a hoot about is that the soap gets used and hands get washed.
Bar soap is fine in a home or other low-risk setting because you're absolutely right, Susie -- proper handwashing with any kind of soap is what works.
Someone mentioned above that not all germs are the same.
Some, but not all, bacteria and viruses have an outer membrane made of lipids. The virus that causes covid-19 has a lipid membrane as shown in a diagram that was published in the New York Time last week.
Pall Thordarson, the scientist referred to in the NYT article, pointed out that lipids (fatty acids) in the soap interact with and can pry open (disrupt, break) the lipid membrane of the virus. When this happens, the virus is inactivated.
Based on my limited reading this morning, I’ve learned that lipids occurring naturally, or as additions, have also been shown to inactivate viruses in breast milk, infant formulas, and even the mucus in our noses. Lipid disruption of the outer membrane of microbes is one of the explanations for inactivation, but there are others.
I’m looking more closely at publications by researcher Halldor Thormar (see Google Scholar search here) and a collection of contributed chapters by university researchers in a book he edited. The book is Lipids and Essential Oils as Antimicrobial Agents, available through Google Books, here:
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6ZepRgMaa2gC&oi=fnd&pg=PT9&dq=
virus+lipid+soap+disruption&ots=XBzqRiLrdZ&sig=BbjskW9Sj1kEg8WIFpO_5fL_XvM#v=onepage&q=virus lipid soap disruption&f=false
I put a break in the link for the book (between “=“ and “virus”) because the post was otherwise not adjusting to the margins properly on my screen.
Some, but not all, bacteria and viruses have an outer membrane made of lipids. The virus that causes covid-19 has a lipid membrane as shown in a diagram that was published in the New York Time last week.
Pall Thordarson, the scientist referred to in the NYT article, pointed out that lipids (fatty acids) in the soap interact with and can pry open (disrupt, break) the lipid membrane of the virus. When this happens, the virus is inactivated.
Based on my limited reading this morning, I’ve learned that lipids occurring naturally, or as additions, have also been shown to inactivate viruses in breast milk, infant formulas, and even the mucus in our noses. Lipid disruption of the outer membrane of microbes is one of the explanations for inactivation, but there are others.
I’m looking more closely at publications by researcher Halldor Thormar (see Google Scholar search here) and a collection of contributed chapters by university researchers in a book he edited. The book is Lipids and Essential Oils as Antimicrobial Agents, available through Google Books, here:
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6ZepRgMaa2gC&oi=fnd&pg=PT9&dq=
virus+lipid+soap+disruption&ots=XBzqRiLrdZ&sig=BbjskW9Sj1kEg8WIFpO_5fL_XvM#v=onepage&q=virus lipid soap disruption&f=false
I put a break in the link for the book (between “=“ and “virus”) because the post was otherwise not adjusting to the margins properly on my screen.
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