Other additives for pine tar soap?

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I used 10% (I think I said that before) but might go to 15% next time. It was a little bit soft, that's for sure. Hard enough after a decent cure, of course, but just sticky to cut.

Will allow a gel, too, as I tried to prevent it which certainly did not help it to dry up before cutting.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, that's been my experience too, Gent.

I have been tweaking my pine tar recipe to have more "hard" fats -- palm, lard (my choice), or tallow -- and slightly less coconut and liquid oil. This has increased the firmness of the soap, so it unmolds and cuts nicely, as well as increasing the longevity. Early soft versions of PT soap didn't seem to last as long in addition to being a modest discomfort in the derriere to unmold and cut. The PT seems to make the soap lather well and also makes the soap more conditioning, so cutting back a bit on the CO and liquid fats doesn't seem to be making the soap harsher or less lather-some.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I was thinking about less OO - good point on the CO, too, especially as PT is usually made for problem skin.

 

[Belinda02]

Because of all the problems others are having with pt With hardness and the stickyness, I used;

Olive oil 30%
Lard 45%
Castor 10%
Pine tar 15%
5% discount

Olive and lard because they make a hard soap and relatively cheap. It's for my Dad's itchy head. He is 85. Bickman's pine wasn't that difficult to work with and I oiled all my tools. The tar was an easy clean up. 24 hours later and the soap can be unmolded. Still a little to soft to cut.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Interesting - can I ask why you had the 10% castor in there?

 

[seven]

not that anyone asked, but here's my recipe for the 2nd batch i just made:

co 15%
castor 5%
pomace 30%
palm 30%
sunflower 10%
PT 10%

SF 5%

i made this batch less than 24 hrs ago. currently, it is cut and curing on the rack. i swapped 50% of the liquid with aloe vera. the whole batter took less than 5 mins to trace. mixing was by spatula only.

i don't think i can go any higher with the PT. i can just imagine how sticky it must be. 10% is the max amount for me. perhaps for next batch i'll do 7%.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...PT is usually made for problem skin..."

Another good point for reducing the CO %. Thanks for bringing that up; hadn't thought about that issue!

Seven -- That's real close to my current recipe as far as "the numbers" go even though you and I are using different fats. It's fun to compare recipes, so I appreciate your willingness to share. Here's mine, FWIW:

Castor Bean Oil 3.3%
Rice Bran Oil 6.7%
Pine tar 10.0%
Coconut Oil 13.3%
Safflower Oil, High Oleic 13.3%
Lard 53.3%

The safflower and rice bran blend is an alternative to olive oil, so a person could substitute olive at 20% for these two fats. Also palm can be subbed for the lard. Some folks might use less lard/palm than what's shown here, but I was wanting to really bump the hardness and longlasting qualities to compensate for the stickiness and softness that comes from the pine tar. My PT soap lathers really well, so I'm not too worried about the SoapCalc numbers for lather quality. I add plain white sugar at 3% by weight based on my soaping oils, no other additives, 5% superfat, and a 33% solution of NaOH in plain water.

edit: Oh and I pop the molded soap in a preheated 170 deg F oven, turn the oven off, and let the whole thing gel or not as it prefers.

 

[MzMolly65]

FWIW, I used

20%CO
40%OO
10%Castor
10%SB
20%PT
38% water
8% superfat

Gent - I can't speak for anyone else, I put the castor in for the bubbles .. but it's not really making much difference. I don't know if more cure time would help or if it's just never going to be very bubbly soap anyway. I think in future I might swap out the Castor for Camelina. I'd lose all my (non-existent) bubbles but after reading this

*
Camelina oil contains over 50% polyunsaturated fats. It is especially high in the essential fatty acids linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid, both which cannot be manufactured by the body. Camelina Oil is over 10 times higher in these acids than many other vegetable oils commonly available. It is nourishing and helps to heal and treat skin conditions such as exzema and psoriasis. The essential fatty acids contained in Camelina Oil help to repair cells. Camelina oil helps to improve the elasticity of skin. Include Camelina Oil in skin care formulations for maturing or sensitive skin. It provides a protective coating for hair follicles and is a beneficial oil to add to hair care formulations. Its high content of natural tocopherols gives it a very stable shelf life against oxidation.
*

I think it would be better for the soap since bubbles are not of prime importance in this particular application. Made Feb 6th and 10 days later it's still VERY soft but not sticky so I'm wondering if a slight water discount would help this soap harden faster.

I also agree with leaving this unscented and with no additives. Scents or essential oils can be very irritating to some. Also, if there are additives you don't actually know *what* worked, the PT or the additives.

 

[seven]

@DeeAnna, it is, indeed, fun to compare recipes. thanks also for sharing yours. i think for my next experiment i am going to up my palm to 40-ish%. as much as i wanna try lard (been reading lotsa good things about it), i can't, for religious purposes

my next recipe is going to look something like:

palm 42%
pt 7%
co 15%
castor 5%
pomace 30%

sf 5%

@MzMolly65, i have a bottle of camelina oil, but it is only a small bottle, and i am still contemplating if i should use it for soap, or for other things like lotions, balms, and such...
btw, that is very interesting info about camelina oil, thanks for sharing that. when i bought it, i was clueless about what this oil is for, lol...

regarding water discount, it is doable. i did a water discount for my last batch that i just did a few hours ago. i was using 1.8:1 (water:lye). at first, i was mixing by spatula only at RT. did not give me a lightning speed trace, in fact, i decided to give the batter a couple of quick bursts with the SB. the soap traced immediately afterwards, a lil too thick for my taste, but nothing major. i just can't have a smooth top like i intended to do.

 

[DeeAnna]

Seven -- The largest Hasidic community west of the Mississippi River lives in my local small town, so I understand all about religious restrictions. Lard is nice ... but so is palm!

In case there are "pine tar virgins" reading this thread and wondering, here's how I make pine tar soap. Others will make this soap differently, so don't take this method as the only way to do it. My only clear unequivocal recommendations are to have your work area and mold well prepared before starting the soap and to stir the soap batter only with a spoon or spatula after the pine tar meets with the lye -- no stick blender! With no further ado....

To start, I mix the water and sugar (if using sugar) until the sugar is dissolved, then add the NaOH and stir until that is dissolved as well. Let the lye solution cool to about room temperature.

Mix the pine tar in a second container with the liquid oils at room temperature until all ingredients are well mixed.

Gently heat the solid fats in my soap pot until the fats are barely warm enough to melt. If there are a few pudding-y bits of fat left, hit them with a stick blender and mix them into the melted fats -- don't heat any more than necessary. The idea is to keep all the ingredients as close to room temp as possible, without waiting ages for things to cool down.

At this point, I double check that my mold is prepped and everything else is ready to make and pour this soap. This recipe can move very fast once the pine tar meets the lye, so it's important to be well prepared before the excitement starts.

When all is in perfect readiness, I add the sugar-lye-water solution to the container with the solid fats, and stick blend just enough to nicely emulsify the mixture. "Trace" is not required -- just emulsification is fine.

When I'm satisfied the batter is well mixed, I set my stick blender aside, grab a spatula, and hand stir the pine tar and liquid oils into the batter. Stir (hopefully) to a thin trace (a thin gravy consistency) and then pour the batter immediately into the mold.

It might take 5 minutes for the batter to politely thicken or it might take 15 seconds to morph into cold mashed potatoes ... I never know. Pine tar likes to keep me guessing.

Clean up as usual. Hot water and soap dissolve any pine tar residues quite nicely.

 

[Belinda02]

Gent, I used 10% castor for plenty of lather. Dad has an itchy head and nothing has worked to give him relief. He is in a personal care home and others help him bath. There is a high turn over in personal and I want that soap to be easy to use so they will give the soap a fair trial. I didn't know about sugar or I would have added it also.

The next shampoo for him will be Ginny's shampoo bar. As my GS says, I want it, I need it, I got to have it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Gent, I used 10% castor for plenty of lather. Dad has an itchy head and nothing has worked to give him relief. He is in a personal care home and others help him bath. There is a high turn over in personal and I want that soap to be easy to use so they will give the soap a fair trial. I didn't know about sugar or I would have added it also.

The next shampoo for him will be Ginny's shampoo bar. As my GS says, I want it, I need it, I got to have it.

Ah, thank you. I didn't think the PT was not lathery (?) but I might well go with a 5% castor next time.

Hope the PT works on his head

 

[Belinda02]

I don't know how pine tar soap lathers. I don't sell soap and want to make this soap once unless it works than I'm game for more. The more lather the more likely personal are to using like a regular shampoo. Unlikely anyone at the home has ever seen pine tar soap except for the residents and most of them don't talk.

 

[Dennis]

Ah, thank you. I didn't think the PT was not lathery (?) but I might well go with a 5% castor next time.

Hope the PT works on his head

I added 5% castor and sugar to mine. Worked fine.

 

[newbie]

I know this is an older thread but because there is so much sharing and discussion of recipes, I thought I would add to it, as I just made my first pine tar soap.

I used:

5% Castor
17% Coconut
25% Olive oil
30% Beef tallow
8% Cocoa butter
15% Pine tar

5% SF
3% by oils weight of sodium citrate

I used Bickmore, which was very easy to use. Just poured it out of the can into the OO and castor oil mix.

I used the same method DeeAnna described with melting all the hard fats and adding lye water to it, emulsifying but then I just poured the batter into the well-mixed combo of PT, OO, and castor versus the other way around. I had to keep the hard oil mix pretty warm because of the cocoa butter but I had ample time to thoroughly stir the emulsified batter into the PT combination and pour, although it was not at thin trace at that time but was definitely pourable. I took time to scrape out my batter bowl into the PT combination and to scrape out the PT batter from its bowl and it was all fine. Got lucky!

I immediately put everything into hot soapy water and it cleaned up very easily. Didn't have to throw anything away.

This recipe is not high on conditioning but it is hard and cleansing number isn't too bad at 14. SHould last a while as hardness minus cleansing is at 26. We shall see! Exciting to make a soap I've never tried before. It's nice that everyone shared recipes.

 

[newbie]

Well, mine partially but mostly gelled. Cut it this evening and the bars are quite firm and I would have to work to dent them. Definitely not soft. Not as dark as I thought they would be and they don't reek. Sigh. Another month to wait.

 

[grayceworks]

I haven't made a pine-tar soap yet, but I did buy one to see if I liked it or not. It has, from the label: Ingredients: premium saponified vegetable oils (organic extra virgin olive, organic coconut, sustainable organic palm, organic neem, organic sunflower), organic aloe, creosote free pine tar, organic oat flour, essential oils (tea tree, pine, cedarwood), sea salt

Their description says (and doesn't this make it a drug according to the FDA, the way they describe it? ):
"If you've got skin problems (psoriasis, eczema, rashes, etc), our naturally medicated tea tree enriched Pine Tar Neem Oil Soap may help. The combination of creosote free pine tar and organic neem oil really packs a punch. Please be aware that this soap has a smokey odor. 3.5 oz. boxed bar"

It does have a smokey pine tree outdoorsy odor, which reminds me of where I grew up, so I like the smell. I do think it would be better without coconut oil though, I find it overly drying for my skin in general, but it has nice lather, and is good on my hair. It's also a very hard smooth bar, and doesn't melt in the shower overly quickly.

I like the EO's used, and when I do make my own, which after using this, I have decided I will try, I think that I will change at least the coconut for lard instead, and see how that turns out.

I wonder how pine-tar and birch-tar together would turn out? With tea tree and cedarwood and maybe rosemary or fir needle EO?

 

[newbie]

Talk about a set-up to be nailed by the FDA. Calling it medicated throws it right in the drug arena. I suppose they are unlikely to get picked up by the FDA, but if one person has an issue with their soap, you can just imagine the mighty deep pit they would find themselves in.

 

[grayceworks]

That's what I thought. It's labeled as a cosmetic, not a drug, so I wondered. It's a soap sold in a bunch of health food stores and places like Whole Foods, and online on their website and on Amazon as well. I wonder how they get away with that?

 

[newbie]

Maybe I'm wrong. THere was the long thread on soap versus cosmetic and it didn't seem to take much to throw it into the cosmetic category. I would think an explicit description as "medicated" would unequivocally put it up a notch. As I don't sell, I don't remember all the ins and outs of the INCI issues with labeling to say if their label conforms to the requirements for cosmetic, much less medicated soap. Maybe someone else will come on who knows more of the ins and outs of this.