You need to tell her to go away and NOT COME BACK. Period. She is now convinced that you are potential convert that just needs "one more visit". They have a whole church praying for you to see the light. You need to be firm and not give her another minute. If you don't, you will get more and more of their church members working on you.
Iowa Nice.
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LBussy
Well-Known Member
This.
Print that along with: "I appreciate that your belief system includes a desire/belief/need to proselytise, however I am not interested in discussing your beliefs or my own." Give it to the person when they show up next time, smile and close the door.
dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
@ Navigator - try calling the church and asking firmly to be taken off their visiting list. Also get a "no soliciting" sign. I think that if there is a sign, then knocking on your door for religious or sales purposes becomes trespassing.
I have a lot of stabby feelings on this topic. I feel very strongly that it is extremely rude, obnoxious and arrogant to knock on somebody's door, harass them in their own home to tell them they're living their life wrong.
I have a lot of stabby feelings on this topic. I feel very strongly that it is extremely rude, obnoxious and arrogant to knock on somebody's door, harass them in their own home to tell them they're living their life wrong.
Ah, but the topic is "I wish I could say 'no'" and your question, Navigator, is super on-target!
I get a yearly visit from the Seventh Day Adventist ladies. Since I work from the converted garage in my home, I'm nearly always around when they come, unfortunately.
Thankfully, saying "no" to the Adventist ladies is something I can actually do, but it only works because I've practiced it over the years and I keep my words short but polite. I cannot let myself get tangled up with excuses and apologies -- that's the road to "caving" for me! Nor can I be rude -- that takes the luster off my happiness just as much as caving.
I do not allow the caller into the shop, which gives the person an excuse to settle in for awhile. I listen to the introduction for a few sentences, and then say --
"Thanks for stopping by. I will not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. Have a good day!"
Deliver with a smile and a friendly wave. Do not say anything more even if the person asks a question -- that's a real danger zone!!! Instead, turn around gently and go back indoors. Wave again and smile. Close door.
I get a yearly visit from the Seventh Day Adventist ladies. Since I work from the converted garage in my home, I'm nearly always around when they come, unfortunately.
Thankfully, saying "no" to the Adventist ladies is something I can actually do, but it only works because I've practiced it over the years and I keep my words short but polite. I cannot let myself get tangled up with excuses and apologies -- that's the road to "caving" for me! Nor can I be rude -- that takes the luster off my happiness just as much as caving.
I do not allow the caller into the shop, which gives the person an excuse to settle in for awhile. I listen to the introduction for a few sentences, and then say --
"Thanks for stopping by. I will not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. Have a good day!"
Deliver with a smile and a friendly wave. Do not say anything more even if the person asks a question -- that's a real danger zone!!! Instead, turn around gently and go back indoors. Wave again and smile. Close door.
navigator9 this is exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about in my post. You want to be polite (and I totally get that), but polite does not mean that you have to give someone what they want.
If you use any of the answers in this topic and she decides not to respect your position than she is NOT being polite no matter how 'nice' she is. Are you really obligated to be polite when someone is determined to walk all over you?
I like DeeAnna's answer but I would probably add something to it. "Thanks for stopping by. I do not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. Please don't visit again. Have a good day!"
It isn't rude, it's honest. If you want to look at it a different way, you're helping her not waste her time as you are not potential convert material
If you use any of the answers in this topic and she decides not to respect your position than she is NOT being polite no matter how 'nice' she is. Are you really obligated to be polite when someone is determined to walk all over you?
I like DeeAnna's answer but I would probably add something to it. "Thanks for stopping by. I do not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. Please don't visit again. Have a good day!"
It isn't rude, it's honest. If you want to look at it a different way, you're helping her not waste her time as you are not potential convert material
dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
This is what Etiquette Hell would call JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. And it's usually not a good idea. It doesn't matter if you converted to the Church of Elvis two days ago. You don't owe these people an explanation of your religious beliefs and you don't owe them an explanation of WHY you don't owe them an explanation. Also, you're just opening the door for them to debate with you. "No" is still a complete sentence.
Although I'm also fond of, "I have 6 dogs and I'm a lifetime member of the NRA." (technically my mom is, but close enough.)
@ Deanna - "politely used" is a polite way of putting it! I doubt they thought of it that way - I'm sure he sees it as an enjoyable conversation between sleigh bell enthusiasts (aka jingle freaks). I can't believe he didn't buy anything!
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LittleCrazyWolf
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of handing the person a note BUT then you will still have to open the door and close it on her. I think calling the church and telling them to take you off the list would be the best option. But please understand that she is not being nice by stressing you out and making you feel uncomfortable. She knows what she is doing. She is counting on you to feel obligated to listen. She is trying to wear you down and that is not something that respectful people do to each other.
I once came out of my garage and found a salesman standing in my driveway. I felt rude saying "no" outright and ended up subjecting myself to so much misery. He was really pushy but friendly enough that I felt obligated to stand there stressing myself out. He wouldn't leave until I finally said that it was my son's first day of Kindergarten and I needed to go wait for his bus. He called three times a week for over a month and I had to be very unpleasant to get them to stop calling.
Contrast that story to the time my husband came out of the garage and saw a stranger standing in our driveway close to our house. He grabbed an axe (yes, an axe) and in his booming voice yelled "CAN I HELP YOU?!" That dude turned white as a sheet and took off running. Our neighbor still teases us about it. In my hubby's defense, there had been some recent break-ins in our neighborhood and he thought the guy was trying to look in the window.
I once came out of my garage and found a salesman standing in my driveway. I felt rude saying "no" outright and ended up subjecting myself to so much misery. He was really pushy but friendly enough that I felt obligated to stand there stressing myself out. He wouldn't leave until I finally said that it was my son's first day of Kindergarten and I needed to go wait for his bus. He called three times a week for over a month and I had to be very unpleasant to get them to stop calling.
Contrast that story to the time my husband came out of the garage and saw a stranger standing in our driveway close to our house. He grabbed an axe (yes, an axe) and in his booming voice yelled "CAN I HELP YOU?!" That dude turned white as a sheet and took off running. Our neighbor still teases us about it. In my hubby's defense, there had been some recent break-ins in our neighborhood and he thought the guy was trying to look in the window.
LittleCrazyWolf
Well-Known Member
I love this dixie, it is just truth. Everything you say while JADEing is just another point for the pushy person to use against you. As a child I hated when my parents answered with "because I said so" because there was no way to argue with them. As a parent I use "because I said so" when my son refuses to accept my reasonable explanation for things like; why he isn't allowed to use the couch as a trampoline, why I won't buy him yet another clock (he has seven), why I won't buy him a Roomba vacuum, why he can't give the cat a bath, etc...
Ask them to mark your house a "do not call" or ask for their local registered location so that you can write there and ask them not to call, after which you will call the police as they would be trespassing, having no good reason to knock on your door
navigator9
Well-Known Member
I really appreciate all of your advice. I feel much better prepared to deal with her the next time I see her. I'm going to write down my spiel and memorize it, so I'll be ready, cause I'm sure she'll be back. It's just hard to overcome all of that Catholic schoolgirl upbringing!
dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
Well the visit is over and I survived. Mr. J.F. and wife spent just over an hour in the shop. I'm sure they went away reasonably pleased and satisfied.
When they decided they were done with me, they carefully packed up the bells they brought with them, said thank you very much, and left without the usual midwestern lingering "sideways" goodbye. And, nope, they had absolutely no interest in buying any bells or having me do any custom work for them.
On the face of it, the visit went okay, but the gut-level reaction to the experience is that I got used. Politely used, but used.
So, I'm curious. This guy brought his jingle bell collection to show you. What exactly did he want from you? To just show you his cool bells? Did he want you to identify them? Estimate their value? Give advice on their upkeep/repair?
Are we actually talking about sleigh bells, or are you using that as a way to protect your privacy? If so, that's totally fine, you don't have to identify what your actual business is. I just want to know if it is REALLY bells.
kchaystack
Supporting Member
I had some people come to my door once.
Me and my friends were playing a live action RP game - so many were dressed up like different fae creatures. My friend Julian was in a kilt, poet shirt, army boots and had a pair of Sculpy horns spirit gummed to his head (he was a saytr). He answered the door, thinking it was more players. He smiled at them, (thank goodness he did not have his fang appliances on).
They were speachless, and then quickly excused themselves. Never saw them again.
Dee, maybe you need to get a fun costume to wear when people come for tours... haha!
Me and my friends were playing a live action RP game - so many were dressed up like different fae creatures. My friend Julian was in a kilt, poet shirt, army boots and had a pair of Sculpy horns spirit gummed to his head (he was a saytr). He answered the door, thinking it was more players. He smiled at them, (thank goodness he did not have his fang appliances on).
They were speachless, and then quickly excused themselves. Never saw them again.
Dee, maybe you need to get a fun costume to wear when people come for tours... haha!
It will be hard, Nav. as you already know. If you're like me, your heart will race and anxiety will jump up. Giving myself permission to say "no" and actually going through with it -- well, it seems like the world will end. But I keep reminding myself the scary time will only last a few minutes at best, compared with the misery of living through yet another "visit" from your church lady or my jingle freaks, however long those visits last, and then feeling crappy after the visit is done with.
I keep reminding myself that a little bit of "present pain" to avoid a lot of future misery is the best way to go, but it's hard to do especially at first. Practice makes better!
I have to laugh. Dixie, yes, I really truly "do" sleigh bells for a living --
And general leather work --
More: http://classicbells.com
Mr. J.F. and wife wanted me to identify their bells and get advice on how they should clean them. They wanted to learn how to fasten the bells back onto a leather strap with correct fasteners, so they wanted to know specifically what size of brass wire I use for these fasteners. They asked for details about how certain straps are made. They especially wanted to know about the equipment and supplies DH uses to clean and polish old bells. And they wanted to know my sources for unusual supplies such as pure wool felt and old fashioned oil cloth, both of which are used on some unusual types of sleigh bell straps. I gave them brief factual answers, but didn't go into detail.
I really think they both have gotten badly infected with the do-it-yourself bug since the Mister's retirement from farming. My opinion is they were wanting to pick my brain to shortcut the learning process of figuring out how to restore the sleigh bells they collect.
I keep reminding myself that a little bit of "present pain" to avoid a lot of future misery is the best way to go, but it's hard to do especially at first. Practice makes better!
I have to laugh. Dixie, yes, I really truly "do" sleigh bells for a living --
And general leather work --
More: http://classicbells.com
Mr. J.F. and wife wanted me to identify their bells and get advice on how they should clean them. They wanted to learn how to fasten the bells back onto a leather strap with correct fasteners, so they wanted to know specifically what size of brass wire I use for these fasteners. They asked for details about how certain straps are made. They especially wanted to know about the equipment and supplies DH uses to clean and polish old bells. And they wanted to know my sources for unusual supplies such as pure wool felt and old fashioned oil cloth, both of which are used on some unusual types of sleigh bell straps. I gave them brief factual answers, but didn't go into detail.
I really think they both have gotten badly infected with the do-it-yourself bug since the Mister's retirement from farming. My opinion is they were wanting to pick my brain to shortcut the learning process of figuring out how to restore the sleigh bells they collect.
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TBandCW
Well-Known Member
Hmm....so they wanted to take advantage of all your research and your time spent learning the ins and outs of your trade?
It's been hard and very awkward at times when talking to other soap/candle vendors, but I don't give out any of my sources. I spend hrs researching best prices, etc. I figure they can do the same! I usually say when asked where I get my supplies, "whoever has the best deal at the time!"
By the way, you have beautiful products!
It's been hard and very awkward at times when talking to other soap/candle vendors, but I don't give out any of my sources. I spend hrs researching best prices, etc. I figure they can do the same! I usually say when asked where I get my supplies, "whoever has the best deal at the time!"
By the way, you have beautiful products!
dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
I agree with TBandCW. VERY rude! I think it would be worth it for you to come up with some lessons and the rate you'd charge, so you can have that info ready for the next Jingle Freak. My aunt is a quilter, and she makes pretty good money teaching quilting and also helping people quilt on her giant machine. By giant, I mean this thing is as long as a car. You use it to sew together the top, the batting (the fluffy middle layer) and the bottom together. Most quilters don't have the giant machine, so they quilt the top (the part with all of the squares) and select a large piece of fabric for the back and then pay somebody with a big machine to do it for them. My aunt charged I think $30/hr for people to sew their quilts on her machine under her supervision.
BTW, if you ever want to teach, check out John Campbell Folk School. It's in North Carolina (so kind of far from you). They do offer leather working classes, but no bell classes! Not sure what kind of equipment you use, but they have lots of black smithing stuff.
BTW, if you ever want to teach, check out John Campbell Folk School. It's in North Carolina (so kind of far from you). They do offer leather working classes, but no bell classes! Not sure what kind of equipment you use, but they have lots of black smithing stuff.
Thanks, Kathy! You're right about their motives. Having been a college instructor for 10 years, I'm fairly willing to share what I know; it comes with the territory of being a teacher. But I feel most comfortable and effective if the learning experience is a give-and-take thing between me and whoever. Yesterday was not one of those times. That's why this thread has been helpful -- I'm working on how to set better boundaries and find good ways to say "no."
Dixie -- I am definitely setting up a fee structure for tours. I would enjoy teaching leather working even without sleigh bells in the mix.
Dixie -- I am definitely setting up a fee structure for tours. I would enjoy teaching leather working even without sleigh bells in the mix.
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Sagebrush
Well-Known Member
Oh, boy. I feel like this topic is ever-present in my life. Sometimes I'm great at saying "no" and proud of myself and other times I feel gross and then ruminate on everything I did wrong and how the person hates me now for saying "no".
I'm originally from Michigan, so I'm Michigan Nice plus indecisive. This does not make a good cocktail for saying "no" to things I don't want to do, because sometimes I'm not sure if I want to say "no" yet which makes me look like I actually want to say "yes"! I've lived in the Seattle area for about 14 years now and I've found that there are some people who communicate and operate like I do (because there are lots of transplants like myself), but the general vibe seems to be passive-aggressive. People don't generally mean what they say, so you really have to listen for the soft "no".
I wait tables as my "real job", and the biggest issue that I have with my Midwestern Niceness is that I'm a pushover. The squeaky wheels get the grease (aka the bigger and/or better sections, get tables sat in their section more often, etc), but all the other employees hate them because they're mean and rude to get what they want. Saying "yes" to myself is not as simple as just saying a firm "no" and closing the door or hanging up the phone. And my manager is very passive-aggressive. Even if she had a problem with me it would never be brought up, it would just be reflected in something else. (I've been with the company for 8 years and worked directly under her for at least 6 of those years.)
So, I feel like a big part of learning to say "no" is directly related to sticking up for yourself and training yourself not to be a pushover so you don't get walked all over.
Not directly related to the rest of my post, but my favorite excerpt from one of the articles that Stacy linked was this:
"Saying 'no' is your battle shield for deflecting distractions, staying true to yourself, and sticking to the course. Every time you agree to do something you do not believe is right, or want to do, it beats you up mentally. I know firsthand. People like to see progress. To create. The creative process is handicapped when you are playing dodge ball with bull[poo] you wish you had never committed to. Trust your gut—your brain will thank you."
I'm originally from Michigan, so I'm Michigan Nice plus indecisive. This does not make a good cocktail for saying "no" to things I don't want to do, because sometimes I'm not sure if I want to say "no" yet which makes me look like I actually want to say "yes"! I've lived in the Seattle area for about 14 years now and I've found that there are some people who communicate and operate like I do (because there are lots of transplants like myself), but the general vibe seems to be passive-aggressive. People don't generally mean what they say, so you really have to listen for the soft "no".
I wait tables as my "real job", and the biggest issue that I have with my Midwestern Niceness is that I'm a pushover. The squeaky wheels get the grease (aka the bigger and/or better sections, get tables sat in their section more often, etc), but all the other employees hate them because they're mean and rude to get what they want. Saying "yes" to myself is not as simple as just saying a firm "no" and closing the door or hanging up the phone. And my manager is very passive-aggressive. Even if she had a problem with me it would never be brought up, it would just be reflected in something else. (I've been with the company for 8 years and worked directly under her for at least 6 of those years.)
So, I feel like a big part of learning to say "no" is directly related to sticking up for yourself and training yourself not to be a pushover so you don't get walked all over.
Not directly related to the rest of my post, but my favorite excerpt from one of the articles that Stacy linked was this:
"Saying 'no' is your battle shield for deflecting distractions, staying true to yourself, and sticking to the course. Every time you agree to do something you do not believe is right, or want to do, it beats you up mentally. I know firsthand. People like to see progress. To create. The creative process is handicapped when you are playing dodge ball with bull[poo] you wish you had never committed to. Trust your gut—your brain will thank you."
navigator9
Well-Known Member
ROTFL.....Oh please send this guy to my house to answer the door!!! I can only imagine the reaction, it must have been priceless!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the belly laugh.
I know this is true. I know it. It's just the idea of hurting someone. Even if they don't care anything about hurting or annoying me, it's just that deliberate action that might hurt someone....that's a hard one to get past for me.
"jingle freaks".....thanks, you made me spray coffee all over my keyboard!
And they wanted all that for FREE????? Like I said.......big cajones. Big, brass cajones! And Dee, those bells are beautiful! I remember when I was little, in our box of Christmas decorations, we had some bells like that, and to this day, I can remember the sound....nothing like those cheap little tinkly jingle bells. The sound of these bells would reverberate in the air....just beautiful. I wish I knew what happened to them.
You're right SOTM, that is a perfect quote, thanks Stacy.
And this is why I love animals......so much easier to deal with than people!
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On the forum there are so many experienced soapers happily giving out information and DeeAnna - you've done more than your share. Your leather and sleigh bell skills are rare, so people would seek out your experience. But this visiting couple made you feel used....I'm curious what vibe you were picking up on to make you feel that way. Maybe you could sense they haven't even tried research on their own? (Do feel free to tell me to mind my own business!)
After reading everyone's experiences, I've learned that I'm better at saying no than I realized, probably due to higher amount threatening encounters we deal with here. Maybe it unfortunately takes misuse and abuse before we Midwesterners can get our brave on?
We on the same block as a school with 1000 students. California doesn't provide bus service - parents drop kids off. So 3 times a day our neighborhood is held hostage by parents who whip into our driveway to turn their vehicles around and it doesn't matter if we're standing in the driveway or even backing our own cars out. There's rarely a week that goes by that we're not either almost struck by them - or they park in, or park completely across it - leaving the car there while they walk to the school. Confronting these rude and self entitled people has become a necessity - or we can't get our own kid to school (she goes to a different one) or get into our house.
Then we had a confirmed predator in our neighborhood - right at the time our girl learned to ride her bike around our tiny neighborhood. Bless my neighbors - even the most meek of them were out confronting any possible intruder. I think we all learned that being "nice" shouldn't always be the tool of choice.
After reading everyone's experiences, I've learned that I'm better at saying no than I realized, probably due to higher amount threatening encounters we deal with here. Maybe it unfortunately takes misuse and abuse before we Midwesterners can get our brave on?
We on the same block as a school with 1000 students. California doesn't provide bus service - parents drop kids off. So 3 times a day our neighborhood is held hostage by parents who whip into our driveway to turn their vehicles around and it doesn't matter if we're standing in the driveway or even backing our own cars out. There's rarely a week that goes by that we're not either almost struck by them - or they park in, or park completely across it - leaving the car there while they walk to the school. Confronting these rude and self entitled people has become a necessity - or we can't get our own kid to school (she goes to a different one) or get into our house.
Then we had a confirmed predator in our neighborhood - right at the time our girl learned to ride her bike around our tiny neighborhood. Bless my neighbors - even the most meek of them were out confronting any possible intruder. I think we all learned that being "nice" shouldn't always be the tool of choice.
"... I'm curious what vibe you were picking up on to make you feel that way..."
Hmm. It wasn't outright rudeness or anything like that, so you're right to call it a vibe. The most concrete thing that I can point to was their endless flow of questions, very serious, very fact oriented, very focused on their their agenda. They'd pull out a fragment of old leather strap, want to know how it was constructed, get an answer, wrap it up and put it away, pull out something else from their box, ask about it, get an answer, put it away, and so on. It seemed to me as if they had some clues about things, but they were either looking for confirmation of their ideas or for more details to flesh out their thoughts. As the hour went on, the process took on the feel of a formal oral examination.
Have you ever been at a party and met someone who can only talk about themselves, the amazing things they've done, the amazing people they've seen, the amazing things they're planning to do, etc.? Maybe the conversation flows to other things briefly, but it always comes back to that person holding court. Their stories can be interesting, but eventually you realize the speaker isn't interested in you as a person, just as a pair of listening ears. There's no room for you in the interaction -- it's all about the other person getting their needs met. It was something like that.
Hmm. It wasn't outright rudeness or anything like that, so you're right to call it a vibe. The most concrete thing that I can point to was their endless flow of questions, very serious, very fact oriented, very focused on their their agenda. They'd pull out a fragment of old leather strap, want to know how it was constructed, get an answer, wrap it up and put it away, pull out something else from their box, ask about it, get an answer, put it away, and so on. It seemed to me as if they had some clues about things, but they were either looking for confirmation of their ideas or for more details to flesh out their thoughts. As the hour went on, the process took on the feel of a formal oral examination.
Have you ever been at a party and met someone who can only talk about themselves, the amazing things they've done, the amazing people they've seen, the amazing things they're planning to do, etc.? Maybe the conversation flows to other things briefly, but it always comes back to that person holding court. Their stories can be interesting, but eventually you realize the speaker isn't interested in you as a person, just as a pair of listening ears. There's no room for you in the interaction -- it's all about the other person getting their needs met. It was something like that.
