Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials

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tnana1

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I have been following this with great excitement, I am new to shampoo bars and conditioning bars. I follow Marie on humblebeeandme, she is wonderful. I must say I am overwhelmed with all your great knowledge on this subject, I’m wondering if there is a base recipe for shampoo bars anyone could share? I ordered a Ebook from making with miss Doyle and to be honest I am very confused on all the science stuff, it’s been awhile since I sat in science class.... is there a simple way to understand? Any help will be great, thanks for any help. Therese
 

violets2217

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I have been following this with great excitement, I am new to shampoo bars and conditioning bars. I follow Marie on humblebeeandme, she is wonderful. I must say I am overwhelmed with all your great knowledge on this subject, I’m wondering if there is a base recipe for shampoo bars anyone could share? I ordered a Ebook from making with miss Doyle and to be honest I am very confused on all the science stuff, it’s been awhile since I sat in science class.... is there a simple way to understand? Any help will be great, thanks for any help. Therese
This post


posted By @amd seems like a pretty simple recipe & I’m sure she will keep us updated on how she likes it. I’m gonna try it on my next day off just because I have so much fun making shampoo bars!

good luck!
 
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amd

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@Gaisy59 When my hair is shorter it has a natural wave to it (my mom has natural super curly hair), but it's thick enough that when it gets past shoulder length it almost acts as if it's to heavy to hold the wave. My hairdresser says it shouldn't behave that way, but she doesn't have a better explanation for it either (and she's been doing my hair for 26 years, so she's been with me through all hair lengths from pixie to the current length). I do have to deal with frizziness during humidity so I change up my hair care seasonally. (And by changing up my hair care I mean switch to a leave-in conditioner and add a silicone-based frizz fighting product - that's next on my list because I'm not thrilled with adding silicones to my hair now that I'm learning more.)

@tnana1 Actually, this is the post that references the shampoo bar recipe that I'm currently testing: Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
Although the clay bar mentioned in the post that violets shared is one of my favorites too. I wouldn't have any problem recommending the HB&M More Mango recipe to a beginner, definitely watch the video so you can see the consistency you're going for, read the blog post, it's all pretty straightforward. And bonus points because the recipe is so moldable you don't need any special molds, presses, or equipment. Although if you haven't worked with powdered SCI before I very strongly encourage you to get the good filter mask, like Marie wears in her video. You can find them at most hardware type stores for around $30. They are a needed investment. When I work with the SCI, I open my window (small basement window), and run a fan in addition to wearing the filtered mask. It's happened that I have forgotten to close my door, and my husband has come into the laundry room (next door to my soap space) and he has had turn around and leave because he's coughing. It's easily airborne and not something to mess with. Hope that doesn't scare you to not try making shampoo bars but does encourage you to take care of your lungs!

Day 2 of the More Mango with Modifications: I am thoroughly looking forward to washing my hair just to enjoy that decadent lather! I just can't get over it. I noticed it a bit yesterday, and definitely noticed it today, but my hair was a bit more tangled than usual when brushing this morning. Not horribly tangled, just a few small tangles. I wonder if using the polyquaternium-7 instead of the honeyquat would fix that. I do think that some detangler/conditioner in shampoos are needed, otherwise I wouldn't have this light tangling when I didn't have it before. My previous shampoo bar had BTMS-50 and Cetyl Alcohol, so it was higher in conditioning ingredients. Otherwise my hair is soft, shiny, and I haven't seen any sign of my (salon) color washing out or fading excessively. No scalp irritation, I was a bit worried about that with the higher SLSa as that can be an irritant and my scalp is a bit sensitive.

I will take a break from washing my hair tonight (I try to only wash my hair 4-5x a week because I'm lazy and gross like that). I'm going to throw this bar in my husband's shower for him to try on his fine, thin, oily hair - plus he's my shampoo bar durability tester as he is good for dropping the shampoo bar and breaking it every.dang.time.
 

Quanta

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I do have to deal with frizziness during humidity so I change up my hair care seasonally. (And by changing up my hair care I mean switch to a leave-in conditioner and add a silicone-based frizz fighting product - that's next on my list because I'm not thrilled with adding silicones to my hair now that I'm learning more.)
I have been adding silicones in very small amounts to my conditioner bars. I also put some in a leave-in spray I made, of which I gave some to one of my sisters who has hair like mine, and some to my mother whose hair type is very different. My mother says it helps a lot with taming the frizz. My leave-in also has BTMS, cetrimonium chloride, honeyquat, silk protein, and panthenol. I need to do a series of tests to see which ingredients are really doing all the work, and formulate around those ingredients.

Silicones are good for your hair and skin, and not so good for the environment in waste water. At least, we don't know yet what the long term effects are of silicones in the environment. At least Cyclopentasiloxane evaporates off and does not get washed down the drain, especially in a leave-in spray. I use that one and Dimethicone right now.

@tnana1 Actually, this is the post that references the shampoo bar recipe that I'm currently testing: Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
Although the clay bar mentioned in the post that violets shared is one of my favorites too. I wouldn't have any problem recommending the HB&M More Mango recipe to a beginner, definitely watch the video so you can see the consistency you're going for, read the blog post, it's all pretty straightforward. And bonus points because the recipe is so moldable you don't need any special molds, presses, or equipment. Although if you haven't worked with powdered SCI before I very strongly encourage you to get the good filter mask, like Marie wears in her video. You can find them at most hardware type stores for around $30. They are a needed investment. When I work with the SCI, I open my window (small basement window), and run a fan in addition to wearing the filtered mask. It's happened that I have forgotten to close my door, and my husband has come into the laundry room (next door to my soap space) and he has had turn around and leave because he's coughing. It's easily airborne and not something to mess with. Hope that doesn't scare you to not try making shampoo bars but does encourage you to take care of your lungs!
The mask she wears in the video is an Elipse, made by GVS: https://www.amazon.com/GVS-SPR457-E...pse+P100+Dust+Mask&qid=1618517829&sr=8-3&th=1

It is the mask that I use and I wholeheartedly recommend it, and I'm not just saying that because a GVS vendor rep gave me a free one so I would promote the product. Once I started using mine, I decided that I would have felt like I got my money's worth if I'd had to pay full price. It is super comfortable and actually seals well. It is easy to take apart and clean. Today I made a few bars and wore one of my husband's cloth COVID masks that he wears to work because my Elipse mask was in the garage (I use it for woodworking too) and the cloth mask was right there in the kitchen, and I did end up having to hold my breath anyway because those cloth masks just do not keep anything out.

Day 2 of the More Mango with Modifications: I am thoroughly looking forward to washing my hair just to enjoy that decadent lather! I just can't get over it. I noticed it a bit yesterday, and definitely noticed it today, but my hair was a bit more tangled than usual when brushing this morning. Not horribly tangled, just a few small tangles. I wonder if using the polyquaternium-7 instead of the honeyquat would fix that. I do think that some detangler/conditioner in shampoos are needed, otherwise I wouldn't have this light tangling when I didn't have it before. My previous shampoo bar had BTMS-50 and Cetyl Alcohol, so it was higher in conditioning ingredients. Otherwise my hair is soft, shiny, and I haven't seen any sign of my (salon) color washing out or fading excessively. No scalp irritation, I was a bit worried about that with the higher SLSa as that can be an irritant and my scalp is a bit sensitive.
I am going to buy some polyquaternium-7 the next time I place an order with MakeYourOwn.Buzz. I want to know how well it works compared to honeyquat, which is what I've been using in my conditioner.
I do put BTMS 25 with some extra Cetyl Alcohol in my shampoo bars. That's about the only conditioning I have in them, and I have found that having conditioners in my shampoo makes it easier to apply to my hair because it is more slippery. All my other conditioning/detangling ingredients go in the conditioner bar. If my hair gets particularly tangled, I comb it gently as I rinse out the conditioner. That works well for me. My hair is super, super fine and breaks easily so I have to be careful how I get the tangles out.

I will take a break from washing my hair tonight (I try to only wash my hair 4-5x a week because I'm lazy and gross like that). I'm going to throw this bar in my husband's shower for him to try on his fine, thin, oily hair - plus he's my shampoo bar durability tester as he is good for dropping the shampoo bar and breaking it every.dang.time.
I usually wash my hair about 3-4 times a week, because I have found that I don't need to wash it more than that. When I was a teenager and even well into my 20's, my hair was super oily. I washed it every day and within 20-22 hours it was oily again. It has gotten much drier as I've gotten older, but I think part of the reason it used to be so oily was because I was washing it too frequently. I find that the less I wash it, the less oily it is.

I don't think I've ever made a shampoo bar hard enough to break when dropped. My problem is usually the opposite, I can't get them hard enough to stay together until the end of the bar.
 

amd

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I don't think I've ever made a shampoo bar hard enough to break when dropped. My problem is usually the opposite, I can't get them hard enough to stay together until the end of the bar.
They're not hard, that's why they break when he drops them. I have the same problem when I use noodles in bars, they break when they get to the last third of the bar.

Shampoo bar went to hubby's shower to test. Passed the durability test. This morning he told me he really likes the lather on the bar. He used it on his beard too and no skin irritation (which is usually an issue). He wasn't sure if it was the shampoo bar, or if he just got lucky, but his hair did what he wanted it to today - which is usually not the case. He currently has this style of hair, so getting it to stay in place without flopping all over the place (or a pony tail) is a challenge for him.
1618607746286.png

He wants to continue testing for a few weeks, so now I need to decide if I'm going to shower in the basement or just make myself a second bar for my shower. More than likely I'll make HIM a second bar with a more manly scent (the test bar I made is scented in peach, lol) and take my back my bar. This will give me a chance to play with exactly how much water to add to smooth things out better for molding (ETA) for IF I decide to continue using this recipe.
 

Quanta

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They're not hard, that's why they break when he drops them. I have the same problem when I use noodles in bars, they break when they get to the last third of the bar.
I'm really confused then. I'm picturing a brittle bar that snaps in half when dropped. Do you mean that dropping it accelerates its progression into mush? Because that happens to mine sometimes when I get close to the end of the bar. They get soft and separate into pieces, and I just pick up one of those little pieces and just sort of smoosh it into my hair to use them up. That happens sooner if it's been dropped.
 

tnana1

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amd, thank you so much for all the great information.. I also made Marie’s more mango bar which is wonderful, just needs a couple more days to dry. She is such a great teacher and she also shares her recipes for everyone to use. I am still trying to wrap my brain around all the surfactants, silicones, vitamins and proteins you can use. I have a question for you, what is a liquid surfactant?? Cocoa betaine? Sorry new to this... I know dry ones are Sci, Slsa.. not too sure about liquid ones. Thanks Therese
 

Quanta

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I have a question for you, what is a liquid surfactant?? Cocoa betaine? Sorry new to this... I know dry ones are Sci, Slsa.. not too sure about liquid ones. Thanks Therese
I'm not amd, I hope she doesn't mind me answering.

Cocamidopropyl Betaine is more commonly used than Coco Betaine in skin care products. Some vendors will refer to Cocamidopropyl Betaine as Coco Betaine, but they aren't the same thing. Coco Betaine is the more natural form and so it is a little bit harsher on the skin than Cocamidopropyl Betaine, which has been processed a little more to make it gentler. This is a very common liquid surfactant used in shampoo bars and is abbreviated CAPB. I have also used Iselux Ultra Mild before, which is a blend of 5 different liquid surfactants including CAPB (Iselux Ultra Mild Concentrate).

If you have a subscription to swiftcraftymonkey, Susan has articles on both liquid and powdered surfactants.


 

tnana1

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Quanta, opps sorry... but thank you for clearing that up. I am subscribed (just) I have a lot of reading to do... I was wondering what CAPB was, I’ve seen it a lot and did not know what it was, mystery solved thank you. Therese
 

amd

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Following up on the testing of the More Mango with Modifications shampoo bar. Hubby is still using it in the shower and will not give it back until he gets a replacement. He has been very happy that his hair has become workable for styling now. I was a bit shocked when I was grilling him on his hair washing habits to discover that he never conditions his hair, and with this bar he still doesn't feel the need to. I moved down to the basement shower so that I could also continue using the bar (I suppose I could have cut the bar in half but that didn't occur to me until just now). I quite like it. The mild tangling I was experiencing has gone away now. Even leaving my hair unwashed for a day, the hair feels great, does not feel gunky, flat or gross. I've noticed less scalp irritation as I head into this week, so I suspect this is a gentler formula than the previous formulation I was testing. I weighed the bar last night, it was 95g (originally 100g, removed 5g for testing pH) when we started using it and is now 92g. So in 7 days and 11 total uses, it's losing approx 1/4g each use (probably less for hubby and more for me), this bar will last us quite awhile!

I did make a second batch on Saturday so that hubby would have his own bar. I scaled up a bit as I have a few people interested in trying them out for me, and I was curious to see how scaling up would work. It didn't. I scaled up to four 100g bars, and I could not get the same kind of consistency as before, it stayed somewhat dry. I used a significant amount of water (almost twice as much x4 of what I used to make the first bar, if that makes sense). I pressed them out anyways and when I went to set the first one on the cure rack, it crumbled to a pile of dust. Went back, double checked weights and it does not appear that I mismeasured any of the dry ingredients - based on my bowl weight, minus the bar that crumbled, and adding the other three bars back in, it was within 5g of what it should have been. I added twice as much water again, and repressed the bars. So far these are holding their shape, but I'm going to give them a full week cure. I'm a bit nervous of what may happen once that water evaporates out. If they make it off the cure rack, I will be giving them a good month long test before I even think of giving them to anyone else.

I am going to order some C14-16 as I think it might be cheaper than SLSa and compare those two. That ingredient swap may be part of the consistency problem. I think I will stick with Honeyquat though, as I can get that from the same supplier as my other ingredients.
 

tnana1

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amd, I enjoy reading your posts... what is c14-16? I’ve made marie’s more mango shampoo bar, which I love. I just made her solid conditioner bar ( cocoa butter/coconut oil) can I use lanolin in a small amount in these container bars? Also can I replace some of the cocoa butter for capuacu butter. Sorry for all the questions, you are quite knowledgeable and I hope you don’t mind the questions. Thanks Therese
 

amd

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what is c14-16?
It's a powder surfactant - I think the most common is Bioterge, but it may go by other names (not quite sure on that). It's an ingredient I haven't tried yet but I have seen it in a few recipes, so I'm starting to look into it and figure it all out. Another member on this forum sent me a shampoo bar with C14-16 in the ingredient list and I didn't notice anything that I could pinpoint to the C14-16. That shampoo bar had quite a long list of ingredients if I remember correctly, but there was nothing about the shampoo bar performance that sticks in my memory as bad either.

I just made her solid conditioner bar ( cocoa butter/coconut oil) can I use lanolin in a small amount in these container bars? Also can I replace some of the cocoa butter for capuacu butter.
I can't give any advice for conditioner bars, I haven't made them or even tried someone else's yet! Capuacu butter is super moisturizing right? If it's the butter I'm thinking of, then you probably can swap but maybe not 1:1 as it might make hair too heavy. If you reduce the amount of butter in it, how does that throw off the balance of the formula? I wouldn't put lanolin in a conditioner bar, but I think that's my own aversion to it after playing with it in beard balm for my husband.

And I really don't know that much, I think Kiwi, Violets and Gaisy could run circles around me for what I know. Mostly I like to play with other people's formulas, test the pH and then test it on my hair, lol. ETA: and then ask my chemist friends dumb questions.
 

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[QUOTE="amd, post: 886891, member: 19465"
And I really don't know that much, I think Kiwi, Violets and Gaisy could run circles around me for what I know. Mostly I like to play with other people's formulas, test the pH and then test it on my hair, lol. ETA: and then ask my chemist friends dumb questions.
[/QUOTE]
Yaaaa no, not moi lol. I read up on what i want in my bar and I followed KiwiMoose a LOT and had input from Dahila. So far really liking my bar and my bottom line is K.I.S.S. 😁
 

tnana1

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Hahaha, you ladies are too funny... I’m the beginner here, you all know so much more than me. Any help is so appreciated, thanks again
 

KiwiMoose

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Hahaha, you ladies are too funny... I’m the beginner here, you all know so much more than me. Any help is so appreciated, thanks again
Hiya - i think I put my trial recipe(s) very early in this thread. Also, my liquid surfactant of choice is foaming apple, having made the decision NOT to include CAPB in my formulation.
 

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