milk soap musings ... long

[true blue]

So I decided to make my first milk soap today. Mind you, this is after years of reading about it.

~ I used fresh goat milk. Froze until beyond slushy ... almost firm but still able to stir.
~ Placed container in ice water - more ice than water.
~ Slowly added lye, about 1 t. at a time, stirring well after adding each t.
~ Mixture stayed cool - almost too cool, I think. The mixture started to thicken so much I thought the lye would have a hard time dissolving.
~ Took out of ice water, continued adding lye. Mixture warmed, but not much. I put it back in the ice water periodically just to make sure it wouldn't get too warm.
~ Once all the lye was in it was about the color of butter. Figured that was pretty good. Set aside to make sure lye would totally dissolve.

Now a thought/question ... it seems to me that when adding lye to fresh milk like this, the milk fat will saponify right away, or at least somewhat quickly. I ended up with some small lumps, resembling lye dots/pellets but larger and softer in the milk ... enough that when adding to the oils, I put it through a fine strainer. I pressed it through and it resembled cooked proteins, like when you make pudding and it gets a little lumpy. Does this happen to anyone else??? (I originally put it through the strainer because of concerns the lye didn't totally dissolve at the lower temp.) Do you just stick blend it all in??? It just seemed weird to me, and that's not something I've ever read about so figured I'd ask.

~ Once I began to stick blend the lye milk into the oils (barely warm), the mix turned a soft orange.

Another question. Everything I've read pretty much agrees that turning orange is a result of the sugars in the milk caramelizing. That makes sense. But this never got to the temps that sugars would caramelize. So now I'm wondering if the orange is from something else. Any ideas? Chemical reaction instead? But if that's the case, then why would some be able to keep it from going orange?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining it went orange ... after all, I'm doing HP and expect it to go all the way. But ... if I ever do CP, it'd still be nice to get it right.

 

[Obsidian]

When ever I use milk I get the same kind of lumps, it the fat starting to saponify. They seem to blend into the oils just fine and leave no spots in the soap.
The orange color very well will fade into a lighter color. Even if you keep the lye mix cool, when its added to the oils, heat will be produced. Some of it must be from chemical reaction too as I've seen some really weird colors happen when using liquid besides water, it rarely stays.

 

[true blue]

Good to know.

When it cooked, it separated - all good, no biggie, just stir it back together, dealt with that before. But then it was like suddenly done. I should have molded then. Didn't. Waited about 10 min. more, stirred ... oh my. Tried stirring my SF oil in ... I'm afraid it didn't totally mix. Threw it in the mold and now I'm afraid to cut it (sure it will crumble).

OK ... so any extra tips on HP full fresh milk soap anyone? Should the liquid be upped? (I used the full 38% 'water' on soapcalc.) I've never had a problem with the soap drying out like this before with HP - this it was pret-ty drastic!

 

[seven]

i think you need to use more liquid if you wanna have a more workable consistency. bear in mind that some of the liquid got lost during the cooking process. i like to have my liquid 3 x lye weight (3:1). the soap will end up less rustic looking. in fact, it should be pretty smooth.

about the milk changing color, this is exactly why i don't do full liquid swap. too much hassle, lol. i'm pretty happy doing 50/50. less things to worry.

 

[judymoody]

This is a very good question; not contentious or ill-informed at all.

There was a really interesting thread, possibly authored by DeeAnna, which dealt with the color change in milk soaps when lye solution hits oils. I wish I could remember more details, but the basic interpretation was that the color and scent change was not the heat "burning" the milk, but a chemical reaction. The reasoning (which I found very sound), was that you can boil milk without it turning color or smelling nasty. Boiling temperature is a lot hotter than gelling soap (typically around 160-180 degrees)

If this is the case, then perhaps all of that fussiness around freezing milk is unnecessary. I generally don't bother freezing when using troublesome liquids like beer or milk, but I don't use them at temps above room temperature.

And yes, it's completely normal for the milk fat to begin to saponify in the presence of lye.

 

[MzMolly65]

I generally don't bother freezing when using troublesome liquids like beer or milk, but I don't use them at temps above room temperature.

JudyMoody .. do you have any trouble with your milks turning that really dark orange? I see videos that say it's a bad thing and the milk is burnt, but if you're suggesting the milk cannot burn then is the dark orange a bad thing or just a colour that will go away? I guess I'm questioning the need to go very slow when pouring lye into milk. I always go slow anyway, even in water but go suuuper slow with milk. Maybe it's unnecessary?

 

[Lin]

The reasoning (which I found very sound), was that you can boil milk without it turning color or smelling nasty. Boiling temperature is a lot hotter than gelling soap (typically around 160-180 degrees)

If this is the case, then perhaps all of that fussiness around freezing milk is unnecessary.

Doesn't the lye when mixed with liquid reach 200 degrees? Also, milk can frequently be burnt due to parts of the milk reaching higher temperatures than the surrounding milk, such as milk in contact with the sides or bottom of a pan. So adding lye directly to liquid milk, the milk thats in direct contact with concentrated lye before being thoroughly mixed is going to reach higher temperatures than the surrounding milk.

Freezing may be unnecessary, I've read of many people who used very cold milk or slush milk instead of frozen solid. But for some freezing the milk completely may be the easiest way to go. I'd rather freeze my milk and have more lee-way in stirring time.

It would be interesting to see a direct comparison between soap made with frozen milk, and soap made with room temperature milk. (as opposed to just looking at the lye-milk mixtures of both side by side which I've seen) I've heard many reports of people who burned their milk by using it at room or fridge temperature and continued to make the soap and claimed the soap smelled horrible and was unusable.

 

[Obsidian]

JudyMoody .. do you have any trouble with your milks turning that really dark orange? I see videos that say it's a bad thing and the milk is burnt, but if you're suggesting the milk cannot burn then is the dark orange a bad thing or just a colour that will go away? I guess I'm questioning the need to go very slow when pouring lye into milk. I always go slow anyway, even in water but go suuuper slow with milk. Maybe it's unnecessary?

I remember reading that if the milk/lye mix goes orange its from the sugars in the milk burning or caramelizing, this can make your soap stay orange. Its a different reaction then the batter turning orange when the lye is added to the oils.

When I used 2 oz of white wine mixed with water, it turned a pale orange when the lye was added but when I poured it into the oils, it went bright neon orange.
By the time it traced and was poured, it had changed back to a nice creamy off white.

I never freeze my milks, just use it cold out the fridge and add the lye slow to keep it from overheating.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just bought some Goats' Milk, so watching this with bated breath

 

[true blue]

Yep - next time more liquid for sure. The whole batch is a crumbled mess - took it out of the mold this morning and it's all crumbles - looks like graham cracker crumbs! roblem:

Seven - yep ... methinks 50/50 is the way to go from now on. If I did CP, then maybe not but with HP ... I think so.

As for burning milk, I'm notorious for letting my milk (for hot chocolate) get too hot. In fact, it boils over frequently - I guess I get distracted easily! But even then, it doesn't smell nearly as bad as lye milk, and it NEVER changes color - it stays WHITE. I'm for sure thinking it's some kind of chemical reaction ... there's no way at all my lye milk got even close to 200 degrees yesterday - I would seriously doubt it even reached 120.

You know, there's another variable I never thought of until I was reading everyone's replies. The goat milk itself. I wonder, if the fat content can be so different between the breeds, could there be something else very different also? Or maybe it has to do with the fat content. Maybe that could also be a reason why there are so many varying results when using goat milk. For example, Nubians are known to have very rich milk - could Nubian milk go more 'orange' when mixed with lye than milk from a breed that has a much lower fat content?

Edited to add a pic of the graham cracker crumbs. :-|

 

[bonnyny]

And then there's also the time of year variable (breeding). The goat farm nearby kids in January (they say the cold weather has less bacteria floating around for the newborns to catch), so they estimate their milk is richer in the summer. They mostly have Nubians, and some alpines and boers - so am guessing it's a mix that I'm getting. What is interesting is that when you freeze the white milk, it turns a very pale yellow. (And will turn back to white if defrosted).

TEG - after coming up with a base formula, I've found that the milk is always in of 6 oz. increments. The easiest, failproof way I've found (for me) is to get the 7 oz cups from ShopRite, pour 6 oz of goat milk in each and freeze. When ready to soap, slowly pour and stir the lye into the 6 oz frozen solids - the color has always stayed pale yellow - and relatively no odor. Good luck!

 

[true blue]

That's true. Freeze milk and it turns yellow. When it's thawed, the cream never goes back into the milk properly (at least with cow milk). That's why it's not real feasible to freeze your excess milk for the 'lean' times. It's just not the same after freezing it.

 

[reinbeau]

That's true. Freeze milk and it turns yellow. When it's thawed, the cream never goes back into the milk properly (at least with cow milk). That's why it's not real feasible to freeze your excess milk for the 'lean' times. It's just not the same after freezing it.

True. I get goat's milk frozen from a friend. I melt it and put it into ice cube trays, then refreeze it. It is totally separated, and much of the fat gathers together. I whisk it up before I put it into the trays. I wouldn't want to drink it, that's fer sher!

As for GM turning orange in the lye, this is a picture of my GM in lye - it stayed nice and light, no orange really at all.

 

[jules92207]

I am very new to soaping still so sorry if this is dumb of me but I am mostly a HP soaper but when I made my first milk soap I was honestly afraid to HP it so I did a CP instead. This is the first time I have read you can HP milk soap without adding the milk "slushie" at the end of cooking. Is it totally doable to use milk with the lye and still HP it? I guess I was afraid it would burn.

Also I had the milk frozen solid and added the lye to the ice cubes. It took quite a while to melt but it never really got that hot and didnt change color - however I was also using breast milk not goats milk so I dont know how different the reaction would be.

I swear I learn something new every thread I read... I really love this group.