How important are the numbers?

[houseofwool]

Now THERE is an article idea!

Yes please!

 

[shunt2011]

DeeAnna I bow down to you!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Woolly, I think I'll leave it for DeeAnna to do - I don't think I understand it half as well as one would need to in order to explain it so well as she does

 

[Ancel]

Thank you DeeAnna once again for your knowledge, patience, generosity and sheer enthusiasm for this stuff! Invaluable, posted to evernote too

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks, all! I'm glad you are finding this helpful. Bear in mind it is a work in progress. For example, I should have included the fats that contribute the fatty acids -- forgot about that.

 

[Susie]

Please sticky DeeAnna's reply

Everyone needs to be able to get that easily. Pretty please?

DeeAnna- awesome info! I just can't thank you enough for breaking it down for a new soaper!

 

[user 12568]

With the OP mentioning how she's formulating a soap for someone who is allergic to coconut oil, I'd play it safe and not use Palm, Palm Kernel, or Babassu oils.

These are all types of palm oil - and since coconuts grow on palm trees there may be risk of an allergic reaction to these as well.

(Unless someone can tell me otherwise...)

 

[MzMolly65]

Wow .. thank you so much for such an informative post. I've saved that one for future reference.

 

[cm4bleenmb]

All Hail, DeeAnna!

Ermagerd! DeeAnna! THAT was awesome. I think I will print that out and make a beautiful poster for my craft room out of it. :clap:

In about half a dozen of your posts vou have given me more information, and explained it clearly enough for me to understand, than all of the soap books I've read all put together. And I've read A LOT of soaping books--I have a library card and I'm not afraid to use it.

I never intend to start a soap business, I don't want to spend years working on a "perfect" recipe, and I don't want to be throwing half my soap out. Yet at the same time, I don't want to just blindly copy other people's recipes, I would like to develop enough knowledge and confidence to do some personalization. This forum has been the best thing I have found and I really feel that I can do that now.

Thank you, thank you and Blessings to you all!!!

 

[GreenEggsAndPam]

Awesome post, DeeAnna. And I have been "going by the numbers" to make the "perfect" soap. Doh!

My husband has asked for a hard soap, since he likes to really soap up and can go through a bar fairly quickly, so I was always going for a 20 on the hardness number. (sigh) Back to the drawing board... Aw, shucks, guess I'll just have to make some more soap...

I have a question on the allergy to coconut oil. If Lye + Coconut Oil = Sodium Cocoate, then would someone still be allergic to that?

 

[DeeAnna]

GreenEggsAndPam -- I can't speak from personal experience, but my understanding is, yes, some folks can still be sensitive to the coconut even when it's a soap.

For a harder AND longer-lived soap, look at adding fats higher in stearic and palmitic acids -- some possibilities include lard, tallow, palm, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango butter. Even rice bran oil and palm-based Crisco shortening will help.

Also, cure your soap well to evaporate as much moisture as possible before using it -- the drier the soap, the longer it will last.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I would also imagine that if you had superfatted, some of the coconut would still be unsaponified.

 

[DeeAnna]

Ah, EG, yes, you are absolutely right. Good point!

 

[Obsidian]

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

This is the best piece of info for me. It explains why my bars with a hardness of 35 last forever, they are very low cleansing at only 8 so the lasting number is 27. Thats the highest out of all my bars and this stuff does last forever

 

[DeeAnna]

One of my soap making friends critiqued my earlier recipes. She loved the feel of the soap on her skin and enjoyed using the soap in the shower, but she wanted the bars to last longer. Given that she's made soap for a long time and knows what she's talking about, I took her comment very seriously. When I analyzed the recipes I was using at the time, I found the "long lasting" number was in the upper teens and low 20s.

I tweaked my basic recipes to increase the "long lasting" number into the upper 20s -- in other words, I've increased the % of stearic and palmitic acids in my fats. My soap is now firmer and easier to unmold and has, once cured, a better balance between lathery-ness and longevity. I need to give Renae some of this newer soap and see what she says about it -- she's never been bashful about sharing her opinion!

 

[karenbeth]

Thanks DeeAnna. Great post. Now I understand what I need to do to get my soap to last longer. Many of my testers have said certain soaps didn't last long. Now I know why.

 

[Obsidian]

I tweaked my basic recipes to increase the "long lasting" number into the upper 20s -- in other words, I've increased the % of stearic and palmitic acids in my fats. My soap is now firmer and easier to unmold and has, once cured, a better balance between lathery-ness and longevity. I need to give Renae some of this newer soap and see what she says about it -- she's never been bashful about sharing her opinion!

Thats a big problem I have, I can't seem to get a good balance that produces a lasting bar and decent bubbles. My a fore mentioned bars with the low cleansing numbers is super gentle, has great slip and leaves my skin soft but it has low bubbles. I can work up a pretty decent lather with a bath poof but I wish I could increase the bubbles a bit without increase the cleansing.
I have such horrible dry skin that most CP is too harsh for me. I've gotten some wonderful bars from other members through trades and I can't use them, hubby gets them all:sad:

 

[seven]

I read that you can use sugar to help with the bubbles? if memory serves me right, 1 tsp ppo? castor oil is supposed to increase lather too, but i'm sure you already familiar with that.

 

[karenbeth]

I don't use palm, but when I put a little bit in a recipe it makes a huge difference to hardness. Now to get the same result without palm. So off to research alternative oils high in palmitic and stearic.

 

[karenbeth]

Maybe RBO. I haven't used it much - don't know why as it's readily available and cheap.