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fragrances % question

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jofa

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Hey guys,

What do you do when a fragrance oil discolors the soap, but you want a white/light lets say swirl.
Do you up the % of fragrance of the rest of the batter or simply reduce the amount of fragrance oil so the soap will have a milder smell?

Thank you!
 

cmzaha

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I work with discoloring fo's by separating out some fragrance for a light swirl and will usually also swirl in a bright mica like apple green or turquoise. Then add the full amount of fo into the remaining batter. There will be enough batter left as long as you are just pouring off for a swirl or two. I use quite a few discoloring fo's and gave up on TD several years ago. If you use light color oils you will get close to a white swirl. Neons will also show in discoloring fo's
 

shunt2011

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I pretty much do the same as cmzaha. But I do use TD sometimes or color it in a different complimentary color. Depending on how much vanilla sometimes it totally discolors eventually. I have found a vanilla stabilizer that will hold the discoloration off for quite some time in some of them. I generally embrace it though
 

Obsidian

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I separate out a small amount to color white and leave it unscented. All the scent goes into the rest of the batter to discolor however it wants.
 

KiwiMoose

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I use quite a few discoloring fo's and gave up on TD several years ago. If you use light color oils you will get close to a white swirl. Neons will also show in discoloring fo's
Hi cmzaha - can I ask why you gave up on TD? I've just started using it - maybe I'm not using enough of it, but it doesn't seem to do much. And the first time I used it, it seemed to be white-ish when I poured, but has discoloured (lost its whiteness) after a couple of weeks cure.
 

cmzaha

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^^^Nothing wrong with TD, I just became to lazy to fuss with it and would rather just work with the discoloring fragrance. Even if the swirls do darken the separated natural batter will still usually stay at least a cream color.
I also do not use vanilla stabilizer as it is a chemical I just do not want, mostly I do not like the smell and working with it.
Here are a couple excerpts for WSP stablizer per their SDS sheet
10.5 Incompatible materials Strong oxidizing agents, strong acids, and alkalis

Carcinogenicity This mixture contains ingredients identified as carcinogens, at 0.1% or greater, by the following:None [X] ACGIH [ ] IARC [ ] NTP [ ] OSHA [ ]
 

Lin19687

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I embrace the discolor or don't use discoloring FO's

I Won't split the batter and add all the FO to one side. Why? Because I feel you could be making that part of the batter a skin irritant by adding too much FO for the lesser batter. You don't have to agree with me, just my opinion. But there are too many beginner soapers (or unethical ex: selling at 1-2 week old soaps) that add too much scent because they want Super smelly soaps....... at the cost of someones skin.
 

jofa

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I embrace the discolor or don't use discoloring FO's

I Won't split the batter and add all the FO to one side. Why? Because I feel you could be making that part of the batter a skin irritant by adding too much FO for the lesser batter. You don't have to agree with me, just my opinion. But there are too many beginner soapers (or unethical ex: selling at 1-2 week old soaps) that add too much scent because they want Super smelly soaps....... at the cost of someones skin.
That's an interesting idea, but I feel the whole soap would have the right amount of fragrance and the unscented parts would compensate for the overscented. I don't know. I sure wait 1 month to 6 weeks to consider my soap ready, but since many fragrances fade with time, I always like to use the maximum amount.

Thank you, guys, you helped a lot! This forum is always a big help. I don't know yet what I feel comfortable doing, but you gave a lot of food for thought! Thank you!
 
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dixiedragon

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Embrace the brown, lol. I so want to make a coconut soap with a brown outer ring and a white inner ring, so it looks like a slice of coconut. But it's just not possible.

I think (I can't swear too it) that MP holds up better against discoloration, so you may want to try that.
 

Hendejm

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I battle with TD and glycerin rivers. I’ve given up on it and just embrace the color the FO gives the soap...if I’m using a FO that discolors.
 

jofa

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I battle with TD and glycerin rivers. I’ve given up on it and just embrace the color the FO gives the soap...if I’m using a FO that discolors.
Hendejm you can do a water discount to avoid TD glycerin rivers. I discount my water and use the minimum humanly possible of water to disperse my TD. Never had any glycerin rivers, ever.
 

Hendejm

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I am going to try discounting water to see if that helps as I sometimes do not want gel phase. Maybe that will help!
 

DeeAnna

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I do as the others have described -- add a larger dose of FO to the portion of soap that has color. But that works only to a point -- there's a limit to how much FO the soap can hold.

If I would normally use an FO at 4% ppo in an entire batch, but I decide I want all of that FO in only 1/3 of the batter, the dosage in that portion of batter would be 3 X 4% = 12% total in that portion. This much FO is very likely to weep out of the soap and look unattractive or it can even form small, wet pockets within the soap.

Experience has shown me that soap can typically tolerate about 8% FO maximum without having problems. Maybe as much as 10%, but that is getting "iffy."

***

I want to encourage people to let go of the idea of "water discounting." I know I'm being picky here, but this concept is so unhelpful. It doesn't help to explain the chemistry of how water, fats, and alkali inter-relate to make good soap. It also creates a mental barrier that prevents soap makers from seeing the water content in a soap recipe as a number that can be adjusted higher or lower to achieve specific goals.

If you look into it, you'll also find there's no one specific water content that is universally accepted as "full water." A number of definitions of full water have been espoused over the years by various soap making authors, bloggers, and forum posters. If there's no one specific water content defined as "full water" then how can you "discount" the water in any meaningful way?

"Full water" and "water discount" are concepts that many people accept at face value as being true, but they make utterly no sense when you look at them closely. I encourage people to talk about lye concentration or water:lye ratio simply in terms of the practical effects they have on soap.
 
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jofa

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I do as the others have described -- add a larger dose of FO to the portion of soap that has color. But that works only to a point -- there's a limit to how much FO the soap can hold.

If I would normally use an FO at 4% ppo in an entire batch, but I decide I want all of that FO in only 1/3 of the batter, the dosage in that portion of batter would be 3 X 4% = 12% total in that portion. This much FO is very likely to weep out of the soap and look unattractive or it can even form small, wet pockets within the soap.

Experience has shown me that soap can typically tolerate about 8% FO maximum without having problems. Maybe as much as 10%, but that is getting "iffy."

***

I want to encourage people to let go of the idea of "water discounting." I know I'm being picky here, but this concept is so unhelpful. It doesn't help to explain the chemistry of how water, fats, and alkali inter-relate to make good soap. It also creates a mental barrier that prevents soap makers from seeing the water content in a soap recipe as a number that can be adjusted higher or lower to achieve specific goals.

If you look into it, you'll also find there's no one specific water content that is universally accepted as "full water." A number of definitions of full water have been espoused over the years by various soap making authors, bloggers, and forum posters. If there's no one specific water content defined as "full water" then how can you "discount" the water in any meaningful way?

"Full water" and "water discount" are concepts that many people accept at face value as being true, but they make utterly no sense when you look at them closely. I encourage people to talk about lye concentration or water:lye ratio simply in terms of the practical effects they have on soap.
DeeAnna, you're absolutely right. It's just that sometimes is easier to use terms everybody recognizes. But I'm gonna correct myself! :) I use a water/lye ratio of 1.5/1, and I never get soda ash, glycerin rivers or unwanted gel.
 

penelopejane

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Thanks DeeAnna, I don’t think you are being too picky.
Lye concentration is much easier to understand than water discount.

I also find the ratios a bit confusing but they are easier to understand than water discount.
 

DeeAnna

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If someone gives a water:lye ratio, such as Jofa's ratio of 1.5 to 1, you can convert it to lye concentration. The 1.5 in this ratio is the Water amount and the 1 is the Lye amount. Here's how to use these numbers from the water:lye ratio to calculate lye concentration --

Lye concentration % = Lye / (Lye + Water) X 100

For Jofa's example --
Lye concentration % = 1 / (1 + 1.5) X 100 = 1 / 2.5 X 100 = 40%

For a no-math solution, there are tables that convert from water:lye ratio to lye concentration and vice versa. Here's one on my website --
https://classicbells.com/soap/waterRatioConc.html
 

cmzaha

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I embrace the discolor or don't use discoloring FO's

I Won't split the batter and add all the FO to one side. Why? Because I feel you could be making that part of the batter a skin irritant by adding too much FO for the lesser batter. You don't have to agree with me, just my opinion. But there are too many beginner soapers (or unethical ex: selling at 1-2 week old soaps) that add too much scent because they want Super smelly soaps....... at the cost of someones skin.
It makes absolutely no difference if all the fragrance is added to the bulk of the batter and none in the split batter for swirling after-all you are using soap with water which emulsifies the soap and washes down the drain. I have been doing this since I started soaping. I also fragrance heavy because my customers want strong fo. I have used many a new soap and it does not irritate just because I use heavy fragrance and not always fragrance my split off batter. Fragrance is going to be the same percentage in a 1-2 week old soap as it is in a year old soap, just because it has faded the fragrance oil is still in the soap

Unlike DeeAnna I have never had a problem with my batter holding the 6% fragrance I use when splitting for swirls. I usually only use 2-3 colors when splitting so not much batter is split of but if I want any of the colors a little darker I will add in a small amount of the fragrance, but never into the batter I want to stay the original batter color. I do agree with DeeAnna that you could hit the percentage of fragrance that the batter may not hold so it will or can migrate into the lighter colors, although I have never really had that happen
 
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DeeAnna

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When using a discoloring FO, I've had the discoloration migrate from the scented portion into the unscented parts and I've had it weep out. These issues happened when the fragrance percentage was 12% in the scented portion. When I dropped it to 8-10%, those problems largely went away.

I stick with 8% max (assuming the IRFA recommendations allow) as a reliably safe % to use, because I'd rather end up with soap with a milder scent than soap with weepy bits. I can sell or give soap with a lighter scent without any qualms. I can't in good conscience do that with weepy soap. But, as always, YMMV.
 

cmzaha

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I would never give or sell a weepy soap and have never had one unless my soap overheats. Yes at times the discoloration can migrate depending how much is split off. I also find a recipe will make a difference with how much fragrance the batch can hold. My recipes hold the amount of fo I use just fine whether split off or not
 
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