Does Lanolin saponify?

[Mark the Box Guy]

I recently read that Lanolin is sticky above 110 degrees F, which lead me to think that it would remain sticky in a soap bar unless it saponifies. I understand that many hard fats have high levels of unsaponifiables, which I'm assuming means that rather than become soap, those fats will remain in their natural state, and simply be transfered to the skin by the soap. But if Lanolin has such a high melt point, and has a high level of unsaponifiables, then how does it operate in soap?

I recently picked up a small tub of Lanolin that I intend to use in a shaving soap as a clone of Mitchell's Wool Fat, but the 110 degree figure peaked my interest enough to pose it to the forum.

Any thoughts?

 

[lsg]

As it has a saponification value, I assume that it does:

http://www.millersoap.com/soapdesign.html

 

[Mark the Box Guy]

As it has a saponification value, I assume that it does:

http://www.millersoap.com/soapdesign.html

The value is low, however at .07, which is close to beeswax at .06. Doesn't a low value indicate that it remains mostly in its original state?

 

[mel z]

It is listed on soapcalc, and it says NaOH value of .076 and KOH value of .106. Iodine 27, INS 83.

So, that is it's saponification value.

I can't say how it performs. I am interested, but afraid I would be allergic (I'm allergic to a lot of stuff, sigh), so I haven't ordered any. I am certain others here have used it, so they may respond soon.

ETA: Just google - lanolin in soap - there are a few older posts on older boards. Don't know if it is appropriate to link though.

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

I HP my soaps and add lanolin at the end of the cook along with all the other expensive goodies. I do remember reading somewhere that lanolin is very temperature sensitive and starts to loose it's 'lanolinity' above 40C or so. So I let the soap cool a bit before I add it. To answer your question, I'm sure that I read somewhere else that lanolin is high in unsaponifiables, if I remember rightly it's more wax than oil or something.

 

[mel z]

Found this for you:

Lanolin (contains a very small amount of saponifiables) Contributes to: soap hardness, conditioning, silky feel, quicker trace. Does not contribute to lather. Lanolin is almost totally unsaponifiable and therefore remains unchanged through the soapmaking process. Lanolin is temperature sensitive, so keep temperatures around 110°F when adding to
soap. Lanolin is also used as an emulsifier for lotions and creams. Lanolin is obtained from the wax found on sheep's wool, refined and purified to cosmetic specifications. Excellent emollient, skin lubricant and protectant, capable of absorbing water in an amount equal
to 50% of its weight.

Link: https://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils

 

[Mark the Box Guy]

Found this for you:

Lanolin (contains a very small amount of saponifiables) Contributes to: soap hardness, conditioning, silky feel, quicker trace. Does not contribute to lather. Lanolin is almost totally unsaponifiable and therefore remains unchanged through the soapmaking process. Lanolin is temperature sensitive, so keep temperatures around 110°F when adding to
soap. Lanolin is also used as an emulsifier for lotions and creams. Lanolin is obtained from the wax found on sheep's wool, refined and purified to cosmetic specifications. Excellent emollient, skin lubricant and protectant, capable of absorbing water in an amount equal
to 50% of its weight.

Link: https://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils

That's the quote I found too, and why I'm investigating the issue. If Lanolin isn't saponifiable, and is sticky at 110 degrees, then what happens when the soap is being used, and isn't at 110 degrees? Why isn't it sticky? I know that it's used in soap, but why and how is what's throwing me.

Part of my question is purely academic; I simply want to understand. But part of my interest is practical; I'd like to make shave soap with it.

Charlie: I'm sure you know that it's used in Mitchell's Wool Fat shave soap. My sense is that the recipe is mostly tallow and Lanolin. It's an old recipe, and was probably created from the ingredients that Mitchell had around, like tallow and Lanolin. I want to make MWF as much as I want to make the Martin de Candre soft soap. I'm certain that these are my next two soap projects. We should stay in touch about these. Perhaps we should start fresh MWF and MdC threads.

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

Found this for you:

Lanolin (contains a very small amount of saponifiables) Contributes to: soap hardness, conditioning, silky feel, quicker trace. Does not contribute to lather. Lanolin is almost totally unsaponifiable and therefore remains unchanged through the soapmaking process. Lanolin is temperature sensitive, so keep temperatures around 110°F when adding to
soap. Lanolin is also used as an emulsifier for lotions and creams. Lanolin is obtained from the wax found on sheep's wool, refined and purified to cosmetic specifications. Excellent emollient, skin lubricant and protectant, capable of absorbing water in an amount equal
to 50% of its weight.

Link: https://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils

I knew I'd read it somewhere! Sometimes it's difficult to separate what's real from what I've simply imagined is true :think:

 

[Candybee]

I love lanolin and used to use it directly on my skin. I never had softer skin. Ever! Have always wanted to try it in CP soap. I don't think that I would use more than 1oz ppo. I'm guessing it behaves similar to castor oil in the finished soap.

 

[mel z]

That's the quote I found too, and why I'm investigating the issue. If Lanolin isn't saponifiable, and is sticky at 110 degrees, then what happens when the soap is being used, and isn't at 110 degrees? Why isn't it sticky? I know that it's used in soap, but why and how is what's throwing me.

Part of my question is purely academic; I simply want to understand. But part of my interest is practical; I'd like to make shave soap with it.

Charlie: I'm sure you know that it's used in Mitchell's Wool Fat shave soap. My sense is that the recipe is mostly tallow and Lanolin. It's an old recipe, and was probably created from the ingredients that Mitchell had around, like tallow and Lanolin. I want to make MWF as much as I want to make the Martin de Candre soft soap. I'm certain that these are my next two soap projects. We should stay in touch about these. Perhaps we should start fresh MWF and MdC threads.

Well, I am not a chemist, but beeswax isn't sticky until you heat it either. Some oils are hard until heated. You see where I am going with that...I have no clue :lolno:, but if you find the scientific research, let us know.

 

[mel z]

I knew I'd read it somewhere! Sometimes it's difficult to separate what's real from what I've simply imagined is true :think:

Same here FFC, same here.

 

[chicklet]

I'm also trying to come up with a good shaving soap and I have some lanolin so I see another experiment coming this week. I made two batches last week mixing NaOH and KOH - the jury is still out on both but I feel I'm on the right path. The ingredients in both are basically the same - tallow, stearic acid, a small amount of shea and in one I put a small amount of coconut oil. One is made with beer. I would love to participate in a discussion about shaving soap in this thread or another thread if you decide to start one. I don't mind sharing my recipe if you promise not to laugh. Maybe I should start a thread in the recipe section? I joined the cream soap forum and am interested in doing cream soap in the near future, but I'm also really interested in developing a shaving bar.

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

'Charlie: I'm sure you know that it's used in Mitchell's Wool Fat shave soap. My sense is that the recipe is mostly tallow and Lanolin. It's an old recipe, and was probably created from the ingredients that Mitchell had around, like tallow and Lanolin. I want to make MWF as much as I want to make the Martin de Candre soft soap. I'm certain that these are my next two soap projects. We should stay in touch about these. Perhaps we should start fresh MWF and MdC threads. '

I nearly started a riot on a wet shaving forum recently by suggesting in a roundabout way that MWF was worse than an olive oil and clay monstrosity that I received for Christmas last year. Honestly, I can't make it work. It might make the best lather in the world if you've got an hour to spare, but try as I might I can't barely get a half decent shave from it.

I've only been doing this for a few months, but the tallow, shea and lanolin soap I made last week works much better for me. If the two were to have a fight MWF would get it's head kicked in . I've never tried MdC, but the 'clone' recipe that songwind posted makes for a mighty fine croap. It's a tiny bit soft for my liking, but a bit of a play with the water and cooking times should sort that out. I'm more than happy to share recipes and results if people want to join in the fun.

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

I'm also trying to come up with a good shaving soap and I have some lanolin so I see another experiment coming this week. I made two batches last week mixing NaOH and KOH - the jury is still out on both but I feel I'm on the right path. The ingredients in both are basically the same - tallow, stearic acid, a small amount of shea and in one I put a small amount of coconut oil. One is made with beer. I would love to participate in a discussion about shaving soap in this thread or another thread if you decide to start one. I don't mind sharing my recipe if you promise not to laugh. Maybe I should start a thread in the recipe section? I joined the cream soap forum and am interested in doing cream soap in the near future, but I'm also really interested in developing a shaving bar.

Don't worry about people laughing, you should have seen my first attempt!

 

[Mark the Box Guy]

I've only been doing this for a few months, but the tallow, shea and lanolin soap I made last week works much better for me.

What recipe is that?? I've got all that stuff lying around.

 

[karenbeth]

Really interesting topic guys. My partner wet shaves with my soap but really he'd use anything. I'd love to make a good soap for him

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

What recipe is that?? I've got all that stuff lying around.

I made a small batch with 500g base oils as follows:

200g stearic acid
125g shea butter
125g tallow
50g coconut oil

To which I added 50g glycerine.

Lye was a 50/50 mix of NaOH and KOH (33g and 47g respectively, but please do your own lye calculations) in 190g de-ionised water.

HP'd at 70c.

After the cook I melted 20g of lanolin in 20g of sweet almond oil and mixed it into the soap when it had cooled to about 40c.

Happy shaving

PS Might be worth putting some fragrance in there 'cos it bloody stinks.

 

[DeeAnna]

Mark -- you have the lanolin, so why not heat up a small sample and see what you learn? From old soapmaking books, I learned that lanolin begins to melts about 107 deg F and recongeals about 104 deg F. That is probably where the "sticky" is coming from.

 

[fatfacedcharlie]

I've just started a thread on the recipe feedback forum if anyone wants to join in.