Using fresh lemon or lime juice in soap..?

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by Jerry S, May 14, 2011.

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  1. Jul 11, 2019 #21

    Hani smaik

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    Thanks DeeAnna for the information. Regarding the last question, I've been making soap since 1993. I've read so much about soap and soap chemistry from different books downloaded from the internet, forums and so on. Any conclusion that I came up with is the result of both reading and experimenting. Anyways, I am always open for any corrections or new insights.. Regarding Lemon, it seems that there's something in the Lemon juice - - other than water - that dissolves or soften the soap. Yes, maybe it's citric Acid. Maybe it's something more. I don't know really for sure. I always add Lemon juice to soap. I'd want to get the benefits of it in soap, and also I like how it helps with easing the process all together. I think yes it's true that essential oil of Lemon is not a Triglyceride. But can you really be sure that the content of Lemon juice is really 0 or triglyceride free? You also mentioned that Naoh reacts with Citric Acid which is (an acid).. what would the result be of reacting an alkali such as Naoh with an Acid like citric other than soap..? (
    C3H5O(COOH)3 +3NaOH>Na3C3H5(COO)3 +3H2O
    ) . There's a tiny little soapy particle in their, don't you think?
    :) cheers

    After reading your comment again, I see that much of it actually goes along with what I've mentioned such as ph dropping and so on.

    Regarding your first comment, the time of adding Lemon juice and the method used really makes a deference. I know this from experiment.. It's different if the juice (that might contain oil by the way..) is added while the Naoh has neutralized with acids or not..

    Thanks RobinRogers for your kind question. I usually add the juice of 5 lemons per 3 kilos of soap. I add half of the juice during the final stages of screening with salt. Then I add the rest after I make sure that the salt-water has washed away any excessive Naoh and other impurities. This is what I "think" that happens by observation and result. When the juice is added during salting-out, the water part in the juice joins the salt-water below. And if there's any remaining of an Acid that came from the juice, it joins the soap layer above.. Of course it's obvious that some of the lemon oil joins the soap, because the soap smells Lemon afterwards.. Another thing, is that the other part of the juice is added after I make sure that the excessive Naoh has left the soap. I switch from boiling to steam-bathing. I place the soap in a water or steam bath allowing the excessive water to evaporate slowly and the soap to neutralize further. Also during boiling-salting out, and after I add the juice, I drop the lemons with its peel in the pan, so that I can extract any oil from the peels. The heat and the salt in the water helps in "expelling?" the oil in the peels, and if there's any in the inside of the lemons.
     

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  2. Jul 11, 2019 #23

    amd

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    I understand your frustration, but the emails are not something I can control. YOU control that in your account and notification settings. Please spend some time getting to know the forum and the culture before you throw a tantrum.
     
  3. Jul 11, 2019 #23

    geniash

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    If there is enough replies then there is enough interest imo. I was thinking of using the fresh lemon juice for the soap but I would do it slightly different. DeeAnna - let us know if this is acceptable/will produce similar results:
    First neutralize all acid in lemon juice. Add couple drops of phenolphtalein (turns bright pink in basic substances) and slowly add NaOH solution to the juice until it turns pink. When it is pink, add a splash of lemon juice to bring it back to the acidic side. Use in the soaping as a substitute of water/fruit juice.

    Question is - is phenolphtalein (couple drops literally) safe for skin use?
     
  4. Jul 11, 2019 #24

    newlee

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    Interesting process. The soap looks good and your house must smell like lemons on soap day.
     
  5. Jul 11, 2019 #25

    Hani smaik

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    Thank you very much newlee. I value Lemon very much. I eat it (with peels) in olive oil and little salt to detoxify. I also place a sliced piece of lemon with little salt on it in the house sometimes for disinfection (I learned that from a video on youtube). The last bar of olive-lemon (with other oils) helped clear out skin allergy which I suffered from for more than a year now.

    I'd like to add something here regarding the process. I've noticed that adding lemon juice to soap during salting-out process improved the process. More impurities separated from the soap. But i'd also like to bring the attention that adding too much lemon juice to a cold process will turn the soap (meshy). But with salting out, that matter which formed and seems to turn the soap meshy washes down to the salt-water layer..
     
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  6. Jul 11, 2019 #26

    cmzaha

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    It actually was not you who responded to the old thread and I also answered it as did DeeAnna.
     
  7. Jul 11, 2019 #27

    RobinRogers

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    You are way over my head here! I’m relatively new to soapmakimg and have only done CP soap. I’m not sure what salting out means. Completely confused. Maybe I can experiment with that after I’ve experimented with salt! I am now in the process of experimenting with different oil combinations. I want a good standard vegan bar and also a good standard bar with lard. I have developed a shampoo bar and a shaving bar that I’m very happy with.
     
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  8. Jul 11, 2019 #28

    Hani smaik

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    I am happy to share and explain in details the salting-out process and when it's good to use it, its downfalls and how to correct it. I've started a thread somewhere else to share that, but It's ok to explain it here in this page or anywhere else.

    As for vegetable oil recipe, I like to base the oils with 40+ olive oil. Less or more is fine. Adding Coconut Oil improves foam and lather, because Olive Oil alone produces a soap with little foam. Also Coconut Oil makes the soap harder (Pure Olive Oil soap is hard but it dissolves faster..). Little stearic Acid gives great stability to soap and helps in making it more elastic and easy to cut, also lasts longer. Castor Oil is a marvelous addition to all that, because it eases the heat of both olive and coconut making the soap warm (not hot). You can also add Almond oil (instead of coconut, or 50-50 of the volume of coconut...). suggested ratio: olive oil 40 %, coconut (or almond or both) 30%, Castor 25% and 5% Stearic Acid (beeswax works well too instead). Since that this page is mainly about lemon. If you wish to add lemon oil - provided that it's CP - essential oil of lemon is added before the soap is poured into molds. Lemon juice does not work well with this recipe on CP..
     

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  9. Jul 16, 2019 at 9:14 AM #29

    earlene

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    You can read more about salting out here with videos and so forth: https://classicbells.com/soap/saltOutTut.asp

    It's a fun, but lengthy process, but not one I would recommend if you are still brand new to soap making.
     
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  10. Jul 16, 2019 at 9:43 AM #30

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    Salting-out is not about having fun as far as I know :) It's not about re-batching neither (such as in the video) though it works for re-batching - but adds salt to re-batched soap... Salting-out soap has a main purpose. Salting-out process removes an NAOH residue which is Soda Ash (that can cause irritation if it stays in soap), and also get rid of any excessive NAOH that did not react with oil (or oils) in a Cold-process. Also, the salt-water (takes down) any other impurities from soap, leaving on top very pure soap. It's true that it takes longer time because it's a process added to Cold-process. And sometimes it requires more than one session to achieve full purity. It's not a complicated process though. The downside of Salting-out is that some salt stays in the soap. I remove it by subjecting soap to hot-water bath with adding little water. The water and the remaining salt makes a layer in the bottom after the soap cake cools down (along with any remaining impurities), and it's removed. This process can be repeated until the soap is very pure, followed by super-fatting (adding little oil to balance ph and make it more acidic!
     

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  11. Jul 16, 2019 at 10:07 AM #31

    earlene

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    I may find more fun in it than you do, then. While completing the purpose as I set out to achieve, I enjoyed myself. I got some nice soaps and the kids really liked that the soap could float.

    But thank you for your experience as well.

    There are others here who have salted out soap and say they will never do it again, of course. And because it is so time and resource consuming (gas, electricity, water, salt, sore feet, hours and several days of follow-up work), I probably won't do it many more times than I already have, which is only twice. But I still say it was fun. Of course fun was not my purpose. But still trying out new processes in my soapmaking journey has mostly been fun for me and fun is fun so I'll stick to my story on that.
     
  12. Jul 16, 2019 at 10:12 AM #32

    Hani smaik

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    It's not that I don't have fun with soap making. I become thrilled when I end up having good soap. As I've said I am pointing out to the purpose of salting out. Sometimes it's necessary especially with some kinds of oils that have Glycerin such as Olive Oil. Salting-out olive oil soap also purifies the glycerin and it can be returned to soap in a pure form.. "note: I didn't work-out the salting out process to please kids :) I make sure to present a soap that is Alkaline-free to my clients - or anyone I give soap to. Also salting-out makes hard-lasting and good-for hair-bars!) Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 10:22 AM
  13. Jul 16, 2019 at 10:44 AM #33

    earlene

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    I disagree that salting out is necessary with olive oil soap. Pure olive oil soap is fine as it is, IMO. Many many people love Castile soap that's never been salted out. Glycerin is a desirable ingredient in soap; there is no reason we should try and remove it from the soap in the first place.

    The reasons I have chosen to salt out soap was to get rid of ugly colors, ugly fragrances (or odors) and to learn the process because I like to learn new things. The first time I ended up with lovely pale colored soap that no longer smelled of ill-chosen fragrance oils that offended, and it was really nice soap as it turned out. Plus, as I said, kids liked soap that floats.

    However, one thing I would like to point out if anyone ever comes back to read this:

    It has been pointed out that if one starts with really bad soap to start with, the resulting salted out soap may not end up being really nice soap at the end of the process. It may be paler and not smell as offensive, but if it was bad soap to begin with maybe it would still be bad soap. I can attest to that fact from my own experience with the second salting out I did. The second time I did it, I thought I'd try and find out if salting out would remove the impurities of rancidity. It did not eliminate the odors of rancidity. Not even after several repeated sessions of salting out. My conclusion, based on my experience: Rancidity or DOS cannot be reversed or salted out. It was a total waste of resources, other than teaching me that it was a total waste of resources.

    But it was fun learning how to do the process and to obtain a successful outcome from the good soap that I used the first time. And of course, to learn that it's a waste of time to try and save soap that has gone rancid.

    Now, back on topic: about using lemon juice.

    I have used lemon juice in soap several times. Not fresh though. Fresh lemons are far too dear here where I live, so I used bottled lemon juice (pure lemon). But the way I used it was as water replacement for lye solution. And as long as I adjusted the lye calculations to offset the acidity of the lemon juice, it never made my soap mushy.

    And I did test lemon juice on solid soap to see what it would do. It was a few years ago and I don't quite recall why I even tried that, just curious I guess. The solid soap did soften quite a lot, but it took a couple of days even though I had cut it up first. In retrospect I sort of think of that as a silly little experiment I did with no real purpose in mind other than to see what would happen.
     
  14. Jul 16, 2019 at 10:46 AM #34

    Hani smaik

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    I'd like to add another note, that this thread is mainly about adding fresh lemon juice to soap. The most efficient (if not the only) process to make that work is again the salting-out, (which can be very frustrating by the way!). I can count hundreds of times making salting-out before I figured it out along almost 10 years or so..
     
  15. Jul 16, 2019 at 10:57 AM #35

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    Thank you very much. That was a great reply. I'd like to ask you a question, and depending on your reply, I can become encouraged to explain more about the process. Did you make cold process soap, and when you got the soap you were not pleased because It's still caustic?

    From your latest answer, I can tell that you went half the way in salting-out. You got rid of odor, etc. But you have "consumed resources". This basically means 2 things. You applied heat or prolonged heating sessions, which is not the way to make salting-out work. The other point has to do with (Spagyrics) ... I don't know if you've heard about that. It's basically an aspect involved with advanced chemical preparations, that includes purifying, separating and then joining again. This is not complicated though as it might sound. But with this concept, the salting-out process is carried on with to further dimension (without working hard or heating too much, it only needs a little bit of patience and contemplation). As a result that which is called (impurities) such as the proteins, starch and Glycerin are purified and it's evolved into a more fine and pure form and returned to soap, along with Glycerin.
     

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  16. Jul 16, 2019 at 11:22 AM #36

    earlene

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    Do you mean me? I don't really need more explanation about the process. It is explained very well here on SMF and in DeeAnna's tutorial as well as others here who also wrote extensively about the process. (DeeAnna's tutorial is linked above in post # 29. But if you want to expand on the process of salting out, I encourage you to start a new thread to maintain topic integrity.

    To answer your question, though, no, my soap was not caustic. Ugly colors and ugly fragrances were the result of poor color and fragrance oil choices, not of being lye heavy (which the soaps in question were not).
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 11:34 AM
  17. Jul 16, 2019 at 11:27 AM #37

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    Thank you Grandmother. I thought so, you don't need more explanation! cheers
     
  18. Jul 16, 2019 at 1:32 PM #38

    earlene

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    I think what we may have here is a perception issue, in that my perception of what salting out is and your perception of what salting out is are different. My perception is based on what I have learned here at SMF and some of what I have read elsewhere in a bit of research to the extent of interest at the time. My perception is that salting out is a process utilizing already made soap (CP or HP, doesn't matter). That is what I got out of what I learned here. Of course, I know that sometimes perceptions are slightly skewed, sometimes faulty and occasionally quite ill-conceived.

    In re-reading some of your above posts, it seems to me that what you describe as salting out is more along the lines of what I perceive to be a process of making soap from scratch done primarily by commercial soap makers in large vats starting with oils and lye adding them separately; not utilizing already made soap at all, and that the process of salting out is simply a part of the process and not the complete process.

    Whereas, my perception is that salting out when used with already made soap, that is all of the process and ends with completion of the end goal of separating the neat soap from the debris left at the bottom of the pot.

    Basically, I think it was when I re-read the following that I realized we were talking about two different things:
    It had not hit me before that you were saying the only way to make soap with lemon juice was via the salting out process. (That's not even true though because I have made CP soap with lemon juice as the liquid in my lye solution with success several times. And no salting out was involved.)

    But anyway, since your topic really is more about the salting out process as you understand it, I do think a new thread would be the way to go to get this clarified and to continue the discussion. That is, if you are so inclined. Perhaps you could talk more about the other steps prior to and beyond the part that is simply the salting out step.

    I would certainly be interested in learning more about the additional aspects of the soap pot boiling method (my perception of what your are talking about - I don't really know the proper term for it in order to differentiate from my perception and yours on this topic.) But perhaps I truly am misunderstanding the term. The threads about salting out here at SMF with which I am familiar all seem to me to re-enforce my perception, so unless my comprehension is faulty, I think more folks here than just I would be a tad confused by your statement that our salting out processes are not complete.
     
  19. Jul 16, 2019 at 2:33 PM #39

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    Thank you Earlene for your wonderful reply. When Lemon juice is counted in the water/ lye solution, Naoh destroys contents other than oil in the juice. I understand that this is a communication process. And communication can take some time and effort for the information to be exchanged properly. Beside Soap Making, I have been working with accordance to the Alchemical concepts. Alchemy is more like chemistry, and it forms the beginning of chemistry. But before the chemists started to work with advanced instruments such as Ph testing, equipment that are capable of listing the elements or substances within a matter or solution, Alchemists used their imagination or insight. This is why if one reads well in Alchemy you will find out that it describes the reaction of matters into more subtle form such as electromagnetism and other.

    When I make soap, I take in account other processes that are happening during the reactions (and different processes) such as fermentation, digestion and calcination. I am sorry if this sounds complicated, it's not my aim to make it complicated. When I add lemon juice to soap with salting-out. I also subject the soap to different processes and concepts, aiming to extract what is refereed to in Alchemy or Spagery as Quintessence or Philosophic Essence, meaning that the extract contains all that which is in Lemon Juice, but it has been separated, purified and joined again into a higher level or energy (and purity.

    Now again, it's not my aim to argue or prove my point of view. All that I have in mind is 26 years of working with Alchemy and Soap. After making thousands of batches, and extending soap to more and more people, I started to notice (delicate) differences between different processes. Think about it for a moment. Why do some soap factories boil soap using 800 degrees temperature? Why many (if not all) soap factories use salting-out with brine salt as a main process (along with other)? Why some factories spend 40 days in order to finish the soap batch? Try taking a Cold-process Soap to a laboratory.. You might be surprised that the soap contains Soda Ash (Sodium carbonate) and free Naoh. If heating soap over 3-5 hours over moderate temperature produces good soap, why did (humans) develop boiling and salting out processes. Did you know that the original castile soap making included boiling with large amount of water and salt for several hours?

    I can't say too much about this at once. CP is not a perfect process, it does not produce high quality soap. Full-boiling is not sufficient to produce high quality soap neither - that goes for (salting-out alone) too. Again what I do is combining different aspects thus processes.

    Regarding whether the salting-out process is complete or not. Salting-out alone, as it's known produces soap with salt left in it... There are mainly two aspects that is associated with a process that when considered, the extra salt is removed and any remaining are destroyed by heat gradually without destroying the Sodium-stearate or other structure of soap - the process is hot-water bath and subjecting soap to hot water vapor by which hydrogen (along with oxygen) aids in digesting soap..
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 3:36 PM
  20. Jul 16, 2019 at 5:53 PM #40

    Hani smaik

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    Thanks again Earline for spending this much time replying to my posts. I was reading your replies again, and I thought of commenting further on some of what you wrote. It's true that what I am talking about as in Salting-out is very much similar to what is being done in commercial factories. Some people might misinterpret the term "commercial" though. Some of the famous soap / brands produce very high quality soap, made of vegetable oils such as coconut and palm oil. Their soap is of very high grade of saponification and purity. This means that the soap is very-well cooked and cured (neutralized). The impurities are removed and made pure again like Glycerin, and other acids such as Myristic Acid and Oleic Acid, and it's incorporated into the soap again. Regarding the steaming or the hot-water bath that I make.. This is similar to what the soap factory does. Factories that make high quality soap incorporate injecting water vapor into the extruder. This is usually done to soap curds, that is a pure form of soap obtained from high-temperature boiling and salting out processes. The purpose of injecting with water vapor is to utilize the hydrogen in the water vapor to destroy the remaining of Nacl (or salt). Otherwise salt of Nacl cannot be destroyed (broken into Na and Cl) by heat alone - not less that 800 degree which can destroy the soap bond too (soap is also a salt or salts). After the steam or vapor operation is over, glycerin, free acid such as Oliec can be added (similar to super-fating), essential oils, perfumes or other.

    What I do is very much similar to the factory processes but slightly different. Full-boiling neutralizes acids (free acids) with base (Naoh) and produces soap very fast. Full-boiling separates that part of Glycerin reaction / bond to Naoh and settles it in the bottom. But full-boiling does not separate other impurities from soap. Also it takes long time for Glycerin to recover from the (spent lye) solution.

    What I do is semi-boiling, followed by few fermenting sessions (similar to CP during gel phase). The soap is heated and it's boiled once (or the fire is turned of before boiling). The soap is left to ferment and neutralize until the second day (or later). The salt in this method is added at the very beginning, along with the oils and the lye solution. The soap goes into a cycle or phases that is associated with (what I do or add what and how much as in salt and Naoh, and the temperature applied). What I do different than the factory is at the "Killing Stage". Killing Stage is a common term in manufacturing soap and it refers mainly to destroying the glycerin, or breaking down the triglyceride bond in the oil... I don't make full-boiling. Instead once the soap floats over salt-water I turn of the fire... the Glycerin starts to separate voluntarily while the soap is cooling down. Glycerin separates but remains (glued) to the soap below and does not become dissolved with spent lye water and salt. The layer that contains glycerin looks semi-transparent, it's mostly consisting of Glycerin reaction / bond to Naoh along with Sodium Stearate (sodium stearate tends to react with Naoh and settles in the bottom too, and it bonds well with Glycerin and some salt (Nacl) too).. Other impurities rest below the Glycerin layer.

    There are usually 4 stages involved with soap/ making and purifying : Strong Phase, Weak Phase, Fitting and Killing. The 4 stages are repeated if more purification and further saponification (neutralizing) is desired. After this comes the steaming or vaporizing stage or stages.

    I am happy to share more details about this process, and to start a new thread for it, provided that there's enough interest and understanding to the necessity of these processes. Otherwise it will sound as a long and unnecessary process. The goal of these 4 stages is to obtain high quality pure soap.

    Here's a link that helps having an idea about this: (yet it's easier to make than what it sounds like)

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US2567381
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 8:36 PM

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