Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?

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It's tough to see from the pics but you definitely had some longevity. Has he shaved with it yet?

Yes- he shaved with it. :) I just put together a little survey questionnaire for him to rate his experience with it. When he gets done answering it, I'll post his conclusions (hopefully sometime today). And in 4-weeks time (for proper cure to take place), I'll have him rate it again to compare the 2 experiences.


IrishLass :)
 
Okay! As promised- I present to you my hubby's answers to my questionaire/survey that I put together for him to rate the croap I made for him a few days ago.

But first, a little background on my formula. The croap was made using my regular 100% NaOH 'hard puck' shave soap formula that I've been making for hubby for years (but with 2 modifications that I'll mention shortly). I won't give away the exact percentages of the oil/fat amounts in my formula, but for reference sake, it consists mostly of a combo of beef tallow and high-stearic butters (such as Kokum, Illipe and/or Mango), with the remaining bulk of the oil/fat amount being made up of the following (in no specific order) palm kernel oil, avocado oil, castor oil, olive oil, coconut oil, and rice bran oil. My regular additives consist of kaolin clay, coconut milk, vegetable glycerin, sodium lactate, sugar, scent, and tetrasodium EDTA. Sometimes I use a colorant and sometimes I don't. Whenever I add them (the colorants), I do so with a light hand, and they have so far never affected the soap's performance.

The total stearic acid amount for my formula, which is derived solely from the fats and butters alone (i.e., no added stearic as a stand-alone additive), comes to 21%. And I superfat it at 8%.

As mentioned above, I made 2 modifications to my formula for my experimental croap batch:

Modification #1) Instead of using 100% NaOH via the CP method as I normally do, I used 64% KOH and 36% NaOH via the HP method (and I HP'd all my hard fats/butters with the KOH, while simultaneously HPing all my liquid oils with the NaOH, and then mixed them together and cooked until zapless).

Modification #2) I increased my added glycerin amount from my usual 10% to 15% (for no other reason than I simply just wanted to try it to see what would happen).

Everything else in the formula was "business as usual".

Okay- now onto the questionaire. Using a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being excellent), I had hubby rate the croap in each of the following categories: Slickness, Cushion/Protection, Post-Shave, Closeness of Shave, Longevity of Lather, and Ease of Lather, and I also asked him to compare it to my usual 100% NaOH 'hard puck' version of the formula.

A) Slickness, i.e., a soap's ability to allow the blade to smoothly glide over the skin without 'catching' or 'grabbing'. Hubby says the croap's lather is "super-slick" with beautifully smooth glide, just like the hard puck version. He gave both the croap and the hard puck version a 10 in this regard.

B) Cushion/protection, denseness of lather, i.e. how much of a barrier does the lather provide between skin and blade? Hubby gave this one a 10, too. He experienced no nicks or cuts or weepers with the croap, and said that the croap gave him the same level of great protection that he's used to with the hard puck version (which never gives him nicks, cuts or weepers).

C) Post Shave, i.e. how does the face feel after shaving? Is it dry or tight? Hubby gave the croap a 10 in this category, too. He said his face felt great after shaving. No dryness or tightness, and no stinging either when he used aftershave- the same great results as he's used to with my hard puck (which he also rated with a 10) . He went on to say that the only time he's ever had a bad post-shave with my soap was last week when (as an experiment) he shaved with a botched batch of my shave soap in which I had forgotten to add the clay. He said that the clay-less puck gave him the 'crappiest' shave he's ever gotten with one of my shave soaps. He said that besides there not being any protective cushion with the clay-less puck, it also made his face feel dry/tight afterwards, and his face stung when applying aftershave.

D) Closeness of shave- Hubby thought this to be a rather silly category and didn't give me a rating on it. The reason he thought it was silly is because he's of the mind that believes anyone can get a baby-butt soft shave given enough time with the right technique, even if a soap isn't all that perfect. Anyway, he was able to get a baby-butt soft shave with the croap, and he says he's also able to achieve the same with my puck, but it all depends on how much of a rush he's in. Case in point- he shaved with the hard puck today and he had me feel his face. One side was baby-butt smooth without a hairy stubble to be felt anywhere no matter what direction I rubbed. The other side felt the same way until I rubbed cross-wise, and then I felt a little stubble. He said he was in a bit of a rush and spent about a minute's less time or so shaving on the second side as he did on the first.

E) Longevity of lather. Hubby gave this a 10. He said the lather lasts through his usual 3 passes without having to re-load (just the same as with my puck). He said on the 3rd pass, although it was getting fairly thin, there was still plenty enough glide, moisture and protection present to get him through without a re-load (same as what happens with my hard puck). Also- when I tested the longevity of the croap's lather out the other evening by placing it in a bowl and letting it sit, although it had dissipated some, half of the lather was still standing at the end of 2 hours.

E) Ease of lather. No rating with this one either, although he did say that it lathered quicker/easier than my hard puck version (Yay! Looks like my experiment worked!). The reason why he didn't give this category a rating is because 'ease of lather' is not on his list of things that he believes make for a great shave soap. He said that the only things that matter, or that count for anything with him are smooth, slick glide, good protection, and great post-shave feel. He said that if those 3 things are present and accounted for in the soap, then it doesn't matter to him how little or hard he has to work at things.

Out of curiosity, I asked him to tell me about his normal shaving routine. He said that normally (with my hard puck), he pours hot water over the puck in the mug, lets it sit (along the brush) to soak 10 minutes while he showers. Then he dumps the water out, shakes the brush out about 3 times and swirls it around on the soap for about 50 - 60 revolutions. Then he face-lathers with the brush for 30 seconds, squeezes the excess lather out of the brush and slathers it on his face with his hands, and then shaves. He makes 3 passes and does not have to re-load.

He said that with the croap, it took less than 50 revolutions of swirling on the soap to get a good enough load for 3 passes. He then told me that if the croap is this good now, he is very curious to see how everything fares after cure.

To summerize, he says that the croap is every bit as good as my puck (which he already thinks is the bee's knees), but with the added improvement that it lathers easier/quicker.

This has been a wonderfully positive experiment for me, and I can hardly wait for him to try out the croap after cure!


IrishLass :)
 
He went on to say that the only time he's ever had a bad post-shave with my soap was last week when (as an experiment) he shaved with a botched batch of my shave soap in which I had forgotten to add the clay. He said that the clay-less puck gave him the 'crappiest' shave he's ever gotten with one of my shave soaps. He said that besides there not being any protective cushion with the clay-less puck, it also made his face feel dry/tight afterwards, and his face stung when applying aftershave.


IrishLass :)

It sounds like you have a big fan! It's been great fun following along with you on your experiments.

My curiosity is in the above quoted post. It's hard to believe that not having clay in the soap would make such a drastic difference. There are so many great performing soaps out there that don't include clay as you know and many that do. It's merits have been debated here and elsewhere for a good while. I'm thinking your recipe could be improved upon if the absence of clay makes such a huge difference.

Don't take what I said the wrong way, it's not meant in any way to slight you or your recipe. It's just that the addition of clay is supposed to give a "little" improvement in the "glide" and small gains in conditioning. So that's why I made my suggestion to improve in those areas by a reformulation of your recipe. If you made improvements in those areas BEFORE you add clay, think how wonderful it will be when you add the clay!

:smile:
 
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Thank you for sharing on your experiment. Make sure you let us know how he likes the cured soap and if there is any difference.
 
Is it always the case that NaOH needs to cure? Because I thought it w a matter of reaction time which HP sort of takes the fast lane around.

If you make CP KOH does it need to cure?
 
Any soap needs to cure ... HP, CP, NaOH, KOH ... it makes no difference. There is no "fast lane" work-around, regardless of what people think.

Cure reduces water content, improves the quality of the lather, increases longevity, and increases mildness. I see this in my regular bath soap as well as in my shave soap.

The difference is comparable to drinking a young wine vs. drinking a wine that has been aged properly for its type. The young wine is certainly drinkable and many people will drink it without complaint, but the aged wine is definitely better.
 
Any soap needs to cure ... HP, CP, NaOH, KOH ... it makes no difference. There is no "fast lane" work-around, regardless of what people think.

Cure reduces water content, improves the quality of the lather, increases longevity, and increases mildness. I see this in my regular bath soap as well as in my shave soap.

The difference is comparable to drinking a young wine vs. drinking a wine that has been aged properly for its type. The young wine is certainly drinkable and many people will drink it without complaint, but the aged wine is definitely better.
Well see I did side by side with two of my batches yesterday - one a few weeks old and one that was a day old. I don't care to lose water content in a shaving croap, lather quality was a wash (sorry, could not resist), longevity is likewise not an issue (and actually it's better if the soap loads more easily), and there was no difference in the experience on my skin. I'm new at making soap but absolutely not new using shaving soap. I also have a very sensitive lab-grade electronic pH meter and there was no appreciable difference in pH.

So, you can see why I ask the question. Empirical testing (well, face feel is subjective but I shave with a straight so flaws are emphasized) tells me KOH and HP does not need to cure, or at most needs a day to stabilize. Maybe I'll try the same tests out of the pot.
 
Well see I did side by side with two of my batches yesterday - one a few weeks old and one that was a day old.


If your fresh soap is working great for you and it's not lye-heavy, there's no reason why you can't use it right away, but be prepared for it to get even better down the road. :)

In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed. The closer to 2 months, the wider in gap the differences. Of course, YMMV as to how great a difference you'll notice depending on one's formula and/or other variables, but as many long term soap-makers can attest, things do have a way of improving themselves over the weeks of cure.

If I were you, I would wait a few more weeks and test again, and then test again a few weeks more beyond that (remember to take notes!). And if you are able, even set aside a portion from the same batch and forget about it for about 6 months to a whole year (or even longer) before testing it. If you are like me and many other soap-makers who have stumbled upon an old, forgotten soap tucked away in some drawer or corner, you may be in for a pleasant surprise when you go to use it.


IrishLass :)
 
It sounds like you have a big fan! It's been great fun following along with you on your experiments.

My curiosity is in the above quoted post. It's hard to believe that not having clay in the soap would make such a drastic difference. There are so many great performing soaps out there that don't include clay as you know and many that do. It's merits have been debated here and elsewhere for a good while. I'm thinking your recipe could be improved upon if the absence of clay makes such a huge difference.

Don't take what I said the wrong way, it's not meant in any way to slight you or your recipe. It's just that the addition of clay is supposed to give a "little" improvement in the "glide" and small gains in conditioning. So that's why I made my suggestion to improve in those areas by a reformulation of your recipe. If you made improvements in those areas BEFORE you add clay, think how wonderful it will be when you add the clay!

:smile:

No offense taken. :) Actually what you said got my wheels spinning about the differing ingredients that apply to 'slip' and 'glide' in a shave soap, and I've been looking online at a lot of ingredient labels of different shave soaps the past few days, as well as user reviews of those same soaps.

Of course, user reviews were all over the map due to the fact that people have different skin-types, live in different climates, and have access to a different water supply, etc.., etc.. but nevertheless, it has spurred me on to test out a hunch that is budding in my mind that besides personal preference and other variables, maybe the clay vs. no clay debate might also have something to do with how high or low the stearic acid % is in the soap.....? I don't really know, I'm just thinking out loud.....

In my particular formula, which only contains 21% total stearic, hubby has made it clear that the addition of clay vs no clay results in the difference between a wonderful, slickery, protective, non-drying shave, and a 'crappy', less-protective, less-slicker, drying shave (even though the lather whipped up beautifully in the clay-less soap).

I'm wondering what would happen if I vastly pumped up the stearic acid % to something closer to 50% and omitted the clay? That will be my next experiment. I'll do this one via HP and 66% KOH /36% NaOH, too.


Lindy said:
Thank you for sharing on your experiment. Make sure you let us know how he likes the cured soap and if there is any difference.

I will! :)


IrishLass :)
 
In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed.
Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps? Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH. :D
 
* If your fresh soap is working great for you and it's not lye-heavy, there's no reason why you can't use it right away, but be prepared for it to get even better down the road....

Yep, what Irish Lass said. No problem there. If you wanna use it, use it. I do all the time.

* In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed....

And yet again I agree. The soaps I use when young are decidedly different when I try them again after several months to a year. This isn't a bunch of bull ... they really, honestly are different.

* Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps? Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH....

So you haven't looked at liquid or cream soaps yet?
 
Lived in KC for 12 years ... lotsa troublemakers down there. 8)
 
Lived in KC for 12 years ... lotsa troublemakers down there. 8)
I guarantee it! We actually get up to Iowa on occasion. I do Pyro and believe it or not he professional pyro laws up there are the easiest in the area. You'd never know it from the way they treat consumer fireworks.
 
I'm wondering what would happen if I vastly pumped up the stearic acid % to something closer to 50% and omitted the clay? That will be my next experiment. I'll do this one via HP and 66% KOH /36% NaOH, too.

IrishLass :)

I'm no expert in shaving soap or any soap for that matter but from reading I think getting your stearic up to 50% is going to be very beneficial and a noticeable improvement. That alone would make a big difference but in conjunction with your 66% KOH and 36% NaOH plan will take it to the "next level"!

Let us know how you make out.
:)
 
A local acquaintance with the last name of Sherman is a crazy pyro. Lives about 10 miles away. I've been to some of his displays. Did I say he was crazy? Add a bunch of his pyro friends, fire eaters and jugglers, and other assorted oddballs ... and it gets even crazier. :twisted:
 
I'm no expert in shaving soap or any soap for that matter but from reading I think getting your stearic up to 50% is going to be very beneficial and a noticeable improvement. That alone would make a big difference but in conjunction with your 66% KOH and 36% NaOH plan will take it to the "next level"!

Let us know how you make out.
:)

Actually, I'm either going to do 70% KOH and 30% NaOH (since after reformulating I now have 70% hard fats and 30% soft oils and I'll be doing the "separate saponification" thing again), or maybe I'll do 100% KOH instead. I haven't quite decided yet. I'll have to do some more reading first and then get a good night's sleep on it before I definitively decide.

I don't know if this will take it to the 'next level' or not, but it'll arrive somewhere, that's for sure! lol I can only hope it will be a level up instead of a level down. But if all else fails, I'll just add clay to it! Muahahaha :p :lol:

If anything, this will at least be an interesting experiment for me to see if the higher stearic will give my formula the same kind of glide and protection that my clay so obviously affords in my formula at the lower stearic level.

I'll let you know how it goes!


IrishLass :)
 
Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps? Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH. :D

LOL (trouble-maker shaver dudes) :lol:

Well, methinks the trouble-maker shaver dude brings up a good point. lol The only 100% KOH soaps I ever make are liquid soaps via the glycerin method, which uses a totally different process than what I'm using with my shave soap (or any other soap for that matter). Basically, I boil KOH and glycerin together until the KOH is dissolved, and then I pour it into my melted oils/fats and whisk (off the heat) until the flying bubble stage (takes about 10 minutes). Then I leave it alone for 1 to 6 hours (still off the heat) until it saponifies itself into a thick, sticky, taffy-like paste, which then gets diluted with water and other goodies to form a liquid soap that gets packaged in a pump bottle. If you want the longer version, you can read all about it here in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

Anyway, after all is said and done and the liquid soap is packaged (all of which can take as little as 1 to 3 days from start to finish), I am able to wash with it right away just fine. For whatever reason, I don't seem to be able to detect any of the 'leaps and bounds" type of improvements that are so obvious in my CP or HP soaps made with NaOH. If there are any improvements to be had, they sure are subtle about revealing themselves to me. lol Having said that, though, I've heard from others that the Failor method of liquid soapmaking (which also uses 100% KOH, but via a different procedure than the glycerin method) seems to benefit from a cure. I've never used the Failor method to be able to verify that for myself, though.

IrishLass :)
 
Well, methinks the trouble-maker shaver dude brings up a good point.
Try it ... you know you want to ... you hear the little voice whispering ...

I think once of the greatest things about this, let's call it the "troublemaker shaver-dude" method, is that you can whip up a 100g batch in no time and with very little materials invested. Do the Bain Marie method in the small tupperware-ish container and it's just too easy not to try. I really would love to hear someone who is more experienced with soaping to try exactly what we're doing and let us know what they think.

Had a great shave with my soap this morning. This was the 5% menthol one, it figures out to 54% stearic on the calculator. I need to move on to EO next I think just to finish things up. The only reason I reach for some of my artisan soaps now is because of how they smell.
 

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