Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?

[wetshavingproducts]

But if the rest of the oils are at a temperature lower than the melting point of stearic, and you add the stearic to them, isn't there a chance you could lower the stearic below its melting point and cause it to recrystalize?

It takes a while, but I usually just put everything in the crock pot and turn it on. Then I do something else for an hour while it melts, and add in the lye once it's all liquid.

I agree with Songwind.

Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F).

 

[alaskazimm]

@alaskazimm, do you know how much of it they add? It would be interesting to see if there is a sweet spot between enough to add slip and so much that it causes issues. That said, if I can make a shave product without it, that would be my first choice, personally.

I don't know the exact percentage, but the clay is listed last or second to last so it can't be a lot.
But I was wrong, one of my top artisan soaps does not have clay in it and I really can't tell any significant difference in slip or feel between that one and the ones that use clay. Apparently clay is not the magic bullet or the monster it's sometimes made out to be.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

I think it's added at 1TB or TSP PPO. You'll know if you added too much if it gets gritty.

Apparently clay is not the magic bullet or the monster it's sometimes made out to be.

I agree with this statement. If it does dull a razor, it's on the order of 5% faster, so unnoticeable unless you use a straight razor and count your shaves & strops.

 

[IrishLass]

It would be interesting to see if there is a sweet spot between enough to add slip and so much that it causes issues. That said, if I can make a shave product without it, that would be my first choice, personally.

For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine.

I talked to my hubby this morning about all the things that have been discussed in this thread, and even though he always constantly raves about my shave soap (he's been shaving with it for about 5 years now), I asked him again if there was anything about it that he would change (based on the discussion in this thread), and he said 'no'. He loves how it gives him a very smooth gliding shave with absolutely no nicks or cuts, and he also loves how nice it makes his skin feel afterwards (no drying or tightness).

He also reports that my soap hasn't caused any dulling issues or breakage to his razor. He has never used a straight razor, but he uses either cartridge razors or his trusty DE razor given to him by my grandmother.

However.........in spite of his wonderfully glowing testimony, I told him that I shall be conducting a couple of experiments on my shave soap formula.....more for my sake than for his (at least for now, at any rate). I told him not to worry because I would not be changing anything in the formula except for the lye: i.e., instead of the 100% NaOH that I normally use in it, I shall try a combo of varying amounts of NaOH and KOH- just to see if it helps to improve the 'ease of lather' factor.

If I haven't said so before, I think it's wonderful that we have accumulated so many wet-shaving gents here on the forum. If it were not for you all (and DeeAnna and Lindy, too), and all the ensuing shaving discussions, it would never had occurred to me to use a mixture of lyes (instead of messing with my fatty acid profile) to improve the ever elusive 'ease of lather' factor in my formula. What a huge revelation that is to me! I send you all a big "Thank You!". :grin::clap:


IrishLass

 

[Lindy]

What's your brand/site? I see guys on the forums frequently asking about Canadian artisans that aren't being rebranded as RazoRock and I don't have anyone to suggest to them.

I'm Malaspina Soap Factory (www.malaspinasoapfactory.ca)

Thanks for thinking of me. I have a few wholesale customers in the US that sell my soap under their brand on Amazon and one sells it through his store.

I have both solid and cream

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F). ..."

Uh, I'm not sure why the issue of smoke point is coming up. Care to clarify that, WSP?

"... isn't there a chance you could lower the stearic below its melting point and cause it to recrystalize?..."

It's certainly possible depending on the method one uses. I'm adding my melted stearic to a partially saponified HP batter that, by the time I add the melted stearic, is probably around 160 deg F. So this has not been an issue for me.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

"...Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F). ..."

Uh, I'm not sure why the issue of smoke point is coming up. Care to clarify that, WSP?

I'm under the impression that oil won't burn until it hits the smoke point. Honestly, I've never encountered oil burn, so I'm going off of limited information.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...oil won't burn until it hits the smoke point..."

The smoke point is the temperature at which the oil rapidly degrades, starts to carbonize, and releases the carbon and other oxidation products as visible smoke. But fats begin to to degrade by hydrolysis and oxidation at temperatures far lower than their smoke point.

Higher temperature for a longer time => more rapid breakdown. Even in the freezer, fats will eventually degrade and smell "off". I don't see the point in heating fats, whether I'm cooking or soaping, any higher or longer than is necessary to get the job done. Whether I can see or smell the degradation or not is beside the point -- my training tells me it is happening and I want to minimize that. Just me....

 

[wetshavingproducts]

And that's why I visit these forums daily atm. Learn something each day.

So, what's the "safe" temperature for our oils? Is there a formula or guideline to follow?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine...........................I told him that I shall be conducting a couple of experiments on my shave soap formula.............

As alaskazimm pointed out that the clay might be a bit of a placebo, could you please make an experiment of totally the usual recipe but with no clay as the only difference - just to see if he notices anything different?

I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference? If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...what's the "safe" temperature for our oils..."

I can't say anyone has written this out in stone.

In my opinion, it is the lowest temp for the shortest time that gets the job done well. It's a little like cooking for me -- if the cake is perfectly baked after 30 minutes at 350 deg F, then don't bake it for 40 minutes at 375 ... or 20 minutes at 325. Just cuz one can, doesn't mean one should.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference? If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?

I'm fairly sure it's just an alternative to liquid glycerin. It does pretty much the same thing: absorb water and keep it on the skin.

Thus, you can swap them out and achieve a slightly different feel. Neither is "better", but they aren't identical either.

All, IMO though. No scientific or double blind studies/experiments behind this theory.

 

[cpacamper]

RE clay, MWF and La Toja, are examples of the very slickest of shaving soaps. Neither contain clays. I try to avoid clay in shaving soaps I purchase, but ymmv here.

 

[IrishLass]

As alaskazimm pointed out that the clay might be a bit of a placebo, could you please make an experiment of totally the usual recipe but with no clay as the only difference - just to see if he notices anything different?

I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference? If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?

Well, you and I are in luck, because I just happen to have on hand a batch of hubby's shaving soap that I made 3 years ago without clay. WooHoo! Goldmine! I had considered it to be a botched batch at the time because I had forgotten to add the clay to it. Otherwise, it was /still is perfectly good soap, but since it didn't have clay, I set it aside in a box until I could figure out what to do with it..... Well, I guess I now know what to do with it!

I'll have hubby shave with it and report back in!


IrishLass

 

[IrishLass]

Okay- I'm back to report on my hubby's experience with the shave soap from my clay-less batch.

The batch was made using the exact same formula (and fragrance oil) as the bar he's currently been shaving with for the past couple of weeks, only it doesn't contain any clay. And coincidentally (as it turns out), both the clay bar he's been using these past few weeks, and the clay-less test bar are from batches that were made just 2 days apart from each other 3 years ago, which happily makes this comparison test all the more evenly conducted.

Wow. Well, I don't really know exactly what I was expecting to hear back from my hubby, but it certainly wasn't what he just told me (which was very interesting).....

First, he said the soap lathered much more than the soap with clay: "lots more fluffy bubbles", he said. But in spite of more bubbles, he felt that the lather didn't provide as good of a cushion or glide, wasn't as thick or creamy, and it fizzled out quicker (the staying power was diminished).

He also said his skin felt a bit dry/tight afterward and his after-shave burned him a bit when he applied it, which normally does not happen.

Well, after his report, in spite of me knowing better, out of a burst of temporary insanity/impulsive curiosity I sneaked off to the bathroom and tongue-tested the soap just in case by some weird, bizarre, freaky off-chance it might zappy or something, but it was as mild and benign as could be- just the same as it was when I checked it after I first made it 3 years ago. I felt pretty darn silly about it afterward, but at least I can now say I doubly know for sure his dryness and burning was not caused by lye-heavy soap. lol :razz:

Well.... as I was saying, all that he reported really surprised me, and I'm not quite sure what to make out of all of it yet, but one thing is for sure- the clay seems to be doing something good in my particular formula. I just never imagined it was doing anything more than providing some glide, so this little comparison experiment has been very good and informative for me.

Needless to say, I think I shall be keeping the clay in my formula, no doubt about it!

I'm excited to make my mixed NaOH/KOH batch and see what he thinks of that. I have everything weighed out except for my lye(s) and water. I hope to get it soaped tonight before I go to bed!


IrishLass

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Clay absorbs water. It also thickens a formula. So, for a shave it does the following:

1. Keeps the lather wet
2. Helps keep the lather stable
3. The water improves glide

But it's not really the clay per se that's working. It's the water that the clay is holding. So, if you reformulated the base formula so that the lather was more stable and creamy, then you could probably use less clay.

You can also try replacing clay with glycerin.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I jolly well love science! Thanks, Lass - that's very cool. But as Wet says, I think I'll look to go down a glycerin route more than anything else.

 

[Mighty Mama]

Mighty Mama you had the percentages backwards.


I use kaolin clay in and mine is very popular with the wet shaving community.

Which percentages are backward please? I used 60% KOH and 40% NAOH which I got to after checking out several sites. It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

............ It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap

THE right consistency? Aren't there many possible consistencies for good shaving soaps?

 

[Lindy]

Which percentages are backward please? I used 60% KOH and 40% NAOH which I got to after checking out several sites. It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap

Most people do the lye opposite to you. However if it's working for you then you're golden. You had asked about it not being hard enough so I was answering that question.