Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?

[LBussy]

• Parfum - Fragrance oil
• Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone masking agent
• Hexyl Cinnamal Often used as a masking agent this is a part of Chamomile and is used in perfuming. It is a known allergen.
• Limonene - Again part of an essential oil, citrus, which is obtained from oranges. It is done through centrifuge or steam distillation rather than the normal method of expressed from the peels.
• Linalool - A terpene alcohol that is found in a lot of different plants/essential oils.
• Hydroxycitronellal - This is a fragrance compound that can be used up to 5% according to IFRA.

I admit I had to look most of them up but I knew they weren't essential oils but rather composites of the essential oil. So in essence these are "parts" of essential oils but not essential oils in themselves.

I appreciate the rundown. Still, one would not expect each of those to be at their maximum allowable amounts, right? It's somewhere between a trace and 5% or so I'd think. It makes no sense for any EO/FO to be at super high percentages but let's say total fragrance contribution is 8% (which seems very high). That means the highest percentage of the lower component there would have to be at or less than 1.33%. That in turn means the Lanolin contribution would be at or below that level since it comes after it in the list. Or do I misunderstand the way the labels work?

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Well, most products are labeled incorrectly in the first place, and if you view the label as saying it's parfum (made up of these ingredients) then lanolin can come in at 4.9% if parfum is 5%.

But, I'm going to go with the incorrect label conclusion.

 

[LBussy]

Well, most products are labeled incorrectly in the first place, and if you view the label as saying it's parfum (made up of these ingredients) then lanolin can come in at 4.9% if parfum is 5%.

But, I'm going to go with the incorrect label conclusion.

Well ... how are we supposed to steal their secrets if they do that!?

 

[Lindy]

They are out of the UK where they have very stringent labeling laws so I am going to assume this one is honest. If the fragrance oil is at 5% which is pretty standard these others could also be used at their maximum allowing for the Lanolin to be anywhere from 2% - 4.9%. Labeling requires that you put the highest first but sometimes the amount of the higher amount is not much more than others below it. I doubt they would only put in 1 or 2% of lanolin, their branding is too important to them and they have been around for at least 100 years. On the other hand if it was the same amount of the others then they could put lanolin further up on the label which is also acceptable.

 

[IrishLass]

Well, I made my first combo batch of NaOH/KOH shave soap the other day, using my regular formula for hubby's shave soap, but silly me had to go and screw it up by miscalculating my total oil amount, and so I ended up having to rebatch it to fix my mistake. :twisted: I haven't had to rebatch in years, but I'm happy to report that it was a very good save and my soap is now fine and happily resting on my cure rack. Ahhhh!

Sheesh! Trying to figure things out for 2 kinds of lye really threw me off my game, but my lesson has been learned and I'm good to go for the next one now!

My next experiment is to do something really radical with my formula, just to see what happens: 64% KOH and 36% NaOH. And I'm going to split the batch into 2 parts- Part 1) all my hard/high-stearic fats (64% of my total oil amount) will be mixed in a pot with the KOH, and Part 2) all my liquid oils (36% of my total oil amount) will be simultaneously mixed in a separate pot with the NaOH. When both are cooked to zaplessness, they'll then be combined together into one pot while they're still hot and fluid-y, mixed well, and then poured/glopped out into small bowls.

I got the idea for the above as I was reading through some older shaving threads on another soaping forum this weekend. On one of the threads a soaper wrote about how they had formulated a great shaving soap following the method used by the old time shaving soap makers back in the early part of the 20th century. The soaper said that the old method they were following consisted of mixing the stearic and other less soluble fats in one's formula with KOH (to make them more soluble in the finished soap), and then mixing the more soluble oils in the formula with NaOH (to make them harder), and then combining the 2 parts together at the end. Anyway, the soaper said the method really helped to make some great, long-lasting shaving lather, as did a few other soapers on the forum who had tried out the method themselves.

So, that's what I'm hopefully going to try to do this week, possibly tomorrow. It'll just be a small tester batch. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


IrishLass

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Wouldn't the correct way to calculate the lye be to run both halves of the soap through the lye calc independently?

Ie, run the hard oils through a KOH calc, and run the liquid oils through an NAOH calc.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

WSP (Can I call you Wetty? No? Okay..........WSP it is) makes a good point - the KOH might not be the right amount for the hard oils, depending on their SAP values. Working out the KOH needed for the hards and then the NaOH for the soft seems better when thinking about it.

 

[Lindy]

Since the you combine the 2 parts you need them to each cover the whole amount I would think because you are adding them together before saponification is complete... Unless I misunderstood the technique. Which sounds fascinating by the way. Mindy ou mine goes liquid once everything is melted.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Since the you combine the 2 parts you need them to each cover the whole amount I would think because you are adding them together before saponification is complete... Unless I misunderstood the technique. Which sounds fascinating by the way. Mindy ou mine goes liquid once everything is melted.

She's planning on cooking both "halves" of her soap, and then combining them together after saponification.

 

[IrishLass]

Working out the KOH needed for the hards and then the NaOH for the soft seems better when thinking about it.

Yes- that's exactly what I'm doing with my current experimental batch, but the previous batch that needed to be re-batched was done differently.

With that particular batch (which was a 90% NaOH/10% KOH batch), all my oils/fats were melted together in one pot, and both my lyes were mixed together in one solution. Then I added the lye(s) solution to the melted oils/fats and CP'd away.

The procedure actually worked out quite smoothly, but it turns out it was 2 oz short of oils/fats because of a bizarre, sudden attack of acute, but temporary cranial gas, i.e. brain fart, brought on by an excess of mathematical stress which overloaded the circuits of my brain to the point it could no longer reason properly. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! lol

Anyway, by the time I figured out my mistake (which came about as I was writing the 'minutes' of my soaping session down in my soaping notebook,) it was too late to do anything except to add the missing oils back in via rebatching.

I have my next experimental batch all weighed out and ready to be soaped. I'm just going to wait for everyone to go to bed first. I don't want any distractions that might bring on another acute attack of cranial gas. lol

IrishLass

 

[IrishLass]

Yippie! I got 'er done, and my first ever croap is now in the molds! Well, I wouldn't really call them molds as such. They're actually small microwaveable and dishwasher-safe plastic bowls that I saved from take-out at KFC for just such a possible occasion. I made enough HP croap to fill 3 of them with just a little bit of headspace at the top that I hope will be enough for lathering up in the bowls.


I did a 64% KOH/36% NaOH batch. All my hard/solid fats were mixed with the KOH, and all my liquid oils plus glycerin were mixed with my NaOH (all using the oven method of HP).

I first brought both to trace in separate stainless pots outside of the oven, then placed both pots in the oven (covered) when trace was reached. My oven was set to 180F/82C.

The KOH portion reached full gel first, and when it did so I dumped my NaOH portion into it even though the NaOH portion wasn't quite in full gel yet (I'm glad it went that way, and not the other way around).

Then I gave things a good stir with my whisk, covered, and continued to cook until all zap was gone and I was able to work up some lather from a little dollop of the batter, which didn't take long at all- about 20 minutes or so. All told, my total oven time from absolute beginning to end came to 1 hour and 50 minutes.

Now I hunker down and wait for cure. I might not wait as long as 4 weeks to test the lather with hubby's shaving brush, though, seeing as how it was HP'd to tongue-neutrality and all. Maybe I'll wait only 2 weeks instead, unless y'all think I should go for it sooner than that?


IrishLass

 

[Lindy]

Nicely done! Looking forward to pictures of the lather.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Do you think it worked better to cook the different oils separately?

 

[LBussy]

I made enough HP croap to fill 3 of them with just a little bit of headspace at the top that I hope will be enough for lathering up in the bowls.

Mind you I have not experimented with the NaOH but with most of the croaps on the market you use the soap tub to load the brush, then move to a separate bowl to work up the lather. Otherwise you end up using way more soap than is necessary. Here's a very good tutorial on that:

Thread: My lathering technique with Italian soft soaps

And since you just tip-toed over there onto the shaving forum, this sticky of soap links may be interesting to you as a soaper:

Thread: "STICKY" post for soaps -Need HELP? read this!

Now I hunker down and wait for cure. I might not wait as long as 4 weeks to test the lather with hubby's shaving brush, though, seeing as how it was HP'd to tongue-neutrality and all. Maybe I'll wait only 2 weeks instead, unless y'all think I should go for it sooner than that?

Again, I'm not a soaper, but I'm not sure if you get a full gel on HP you need to wait at all. Maybe someone can right my wrongs but I did not wait to test at all and thoroughly enjoyed my experience.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

With the croap, I am not 100% sure. My soapy-sense is tingling and makes me think that a cure is of course needed, but as a croap is a croap, how does the whole structure-change-over-time aspect work in? Does one cure liquid soap? The answer to that would go some way to helping us with the croaps

 

[IrishLass]

Do you think it worked better to cook the different oils separately?

Well, there was certainly more work involved compared to my usual soaping methods that's for sure, but as for the final outcome- only the end of cure will tell.

What I really need to do for a good 1 on 1 comparison is to make the same recipe using 64% KOH/36% NaOH, but instead of separating things, just add all the oils/fats together and both lyes together, then soap as normal. That will be my next experiment (hopefully in the next few days). If it turns out that I don't see any difference in the end lather, I'll be a happy camper to be able to simplify the process by cutting out the extra 'separating' steps. Not that it was hard or difficult to do, mind you, but just a little more involved than my preferred method of soaping.

Mind you I have not experimented with the NaOH but with most of the croaps on the market you use the soap tub to load the brush, then move to a separate bowl to work up the lather. Otherwise you end up using way more soap than is necessary. Here's a very good tutorial on that:
Thread: My lathering technique with Italian soft soaps

Thank you very much! That was very helpful. I shall use that technique when I test the lather out.

And since you just tip-toed over there onto the shaving forum, this sticky of soap links may be interesting to you as a soaper:
Thread: "STICKY" post for soaps -Need HELP? read this!

Again, thank you! Yeah, I guess you could say that I've spent more than a few hours reading over at the B&B the past few days. lol

This thread in particular had me positively riveted: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/198520-Home-made-shaving-soap Not to mention the couple of the links that someone in the thread had posted that led to old industrial soapmaking books from the 19th century. Oh my! Needless to say, other than making my small batch of croap yesterday, I haven't got much else done around here except for reading! Aye yi yi! Soap has a crazy way of doing that to me. lol

Although I've been making soap for awhile now, the whole idea of combining different portions of KOH and NaOH to improve on the ever elusive 'ease of lather' quotient in hubby's shave soap is a brand new concept to me and it has kindled a fire under me, because that's the only improvement that hubby and my aficionado tester told me my shave soap would benefit from. They were pretty adamant about me not changing anything else about the soap but that one thing, so if I can improve on that, I will be very happy indeed.

It's so funny, because I'll be happy not so much for hubby's sake (since he's told me he doesn't mind having to apply the extra elbow grease), but mostly for my own sake- even though I don't use the soap- because it will greatly please the inner soap nerd in me. lol

Again, I'm not a soaper, but I'm not sure if you get a full gel on HP you need to wait at all. Maybe someone can right my wrongs but I did not wait to test at all and thoroughly enjoyed my experience.

Temptor! Well, even though I'm a big stickler for cure in my NaOH soaps, whether with HP or CP (experience with both methods has shown me the wonderful benefits and marked improvements that always come from waiting longer), you've talked me into an early lather test with my hybrid. lol Besides, it'll give me something with which to compare my post-cure test. I will try the lathering method you posted in the link above and report back later today, hopefully with some pics included.

Does one cure liquid soap? The answer to that would go some way to helping us with the croaps

You know, that's a good question. I make liquid hand soap with 100% KOH via the 'glycerin method' where the KOH is dissolved in hot, boiling glycerin instead of water, and I can actually use it the same day it is made without any problem. But then again, I formulate with a +3 superfat up front and also add extra oil (meadowfoam seed oil) after the cook (when diluting) so that it has a total of 5% superfat when all is said and done.

For what its worth, I often hear the same thing from others who make liquid soap via the glycerin method- even those that don't superfat extra like I do- i.e., that they can use it right away after making it, unlike the liquid soap they've made using the Failor method of liquid soap-making in comparison.

The Failor method of liquid soap-making involves formulating with a fairly substantial negative superfat up front, dissolving the KOH into room temp water instead of boiling glycerin, and adding boric acid later on to lessen the pH, etc... Anyway, I've heard from some of those who have used both the Failor method and the glycerin method that their resulting soap with the Failor method benefits greatly from a cure (sequestering), while in comparison, they felt comfortable using their soap made via the glycerin method right away.

Anyway, I really can't say that I have detected much of a difference in the feel of my liquid soap between when it's new and when it's older, like I can with my NaOH bar soaps (the changes in those are obvious and amazing!). If there is any difference to be felt in my liquid soap, it's just too subtle for me to discern. I don't know if it's merely a KOH-thing or maybe a combination KOH/glycerin-thing or a KOH/glycerin/superfat-thing, but there you have it- those are my results.

I should probably mention that I only use my liquid soap for washing my hands. I suppose if I used it for showering/bathing there might be a different story to tell (or not), but I hate using anything but bar soap in my shower. Maybe that's a test for the future.

IrishLass

 

[LBussy]

Temptor! Well, even though I'm a big stickler for cure in my NaOH soaps, whether with HP or CP (experience with both methods has shown me the wonderful benefits and marked improvements that always come from waiting longer), you've talked me into an early lather test with my hybrid. lol Besides, it'll give me something with which to compare my post-cure test. I will try the lathering method you posted in the link above and report back later today, hopefully with some pics included.

True enough, mine are KOH.

Why the desire to use any NaOH? Do you need to be able to form a puck?

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Faster loading? Try dropping the superfat and upping the water.

 

[IrishLass]

Why the desire to use any NaOH? Do you need to be able to form a puck?

Yep- my formula for hubby's soap (which I've always made with 100% NaOH) produces a hard puck, which hubby likes just fine. It's what he's used most of his shaving life, and so when I embarked on designing a shave soap for him back in 2009, a hard puck is what I set out to create.

I tested out my day-old croap's lather this evening. It's very promising!

After swirling the wet brush around on the surface of the croap for 200 swirls (as per the tute), I then spent about a minute or so vigorously building the lather up in a separate empty bowl, and this is what I ended up with:

I then squeegeed the lather off of the brush into a small bowl (which just filled it to the rim), took note of the time, and went out to dinner. When I came back almost 2 hours later, this is the sight that awaited me:

Not bad for such a young whippersnapper of a soap! I'm going to see if I can get hubby to try it out tomorrow and see what he thinks.


IrishLass

 

[LBussy]

It's tough to see from the pics but you definitely had some longevity. Has he shaved with it yet?