Liquid shampoo

[KiwiMoose]

I think that saying is objectively false. Perhaps it can only be applied to innocuous offenses.

Yes - I think so. If someone is deliberately hurling insults then of course someone will be offended. But I've found it a useful saying in recent years as forum activity has become more commonplace as a way of interaction - oftentimes there is no offence intended but tone can so easily be misconstrued in written communication. It's good to remember that almost everyone does not have the intention of deliberately upsetting or insulting people.
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good - oh lord please don't let me be misunderstood"

 

[DeeAnna]

The fact that she edited after she realized you weren't tracking with her humor, doesn't mean she was wrong....

I appreciate your words, AliOop, but I edited my post based purely on my own personal desire to do so -- almost 3 hours before the OP started this kerfluffle.

The OP's screenshot gives the impression that ALL I did was remove that "ahem" when I edited my post. Truth is, I also made other edits that are not included in their brief screenshot.

I do not appreciate the OP's selective reveal of only that small quote from my original post -- just enough to support their opinion of me, but not enough to provide the whole, proper context of what I said.

But enough. This is the last I'm saying on this issue.

In my mind, the important issue here is the importance of using technical words with their proper meaning. Using technical words in a consistent way is the basis for effective communication in science, including the lower level science we do when making soap.

People come here to this forum to learn more about the technical aspects of soap making, among other things. The words surfactant and detergent should be used based on their correct technical meaning.

We don't all have to be PhD surfactant chemists, but if we're going to use technical words, we should be responsible enough to use them as correctly and accurately as we can. Otherwise the words will become meaningless because everyone defines them differently.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I have a large feeling Zany has short hair which is cut regularly.

Love ya, Carolyn, but i have to tell ya that statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Most of my life my hair has been medium length bob or some variation of that. During COVID lockdown, it grew to ponytail / bun length. I had it cut the shortest I've ever worn it last year. I needed a "wash & wear" style due to not being able to manage styling it on my own due to old age/ arthritis.

At the moment, it's shoulder length and suffering from the effects of my castor oil experiment rubbed on my scalp to improve thickness. (I need to update that post!) Castor is so hard to wash out that a detergent shampoo X 2 was needed. It ruined my hair!

The funny thing is, maybe not so funny, the same thing happened to my healthy virgin hair that those who suffer damage to their hair due to using lye-based shampoo complain about! ACK! It looks awful.

I have an appt. tomorrow to have a couple inches of dry ends cut off and to have it shaped so I don't have to fiddle with it. Hopefully, it will recover once I get back to using my regular all natural lye-based shampoos. Cross fingers.

 

[Soapmaker333]

The fact that she edited after she realized you weren't tracking with her humor, doesn't mean she was wrong.

Humility is a sign of kindness and strength, not weakness.

It was deleted before I commented but nice try.

 

[Soapmaker333]

@Soapmaker333 -- "...everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all...."

I see some misunderstandings here, so time for some clarifications.

Coconut oil saponified with KOH (potassium cocoate) is soap. So soap is the main cleansing ingredient in this product.

A simple way of defining a surfactant is any chemical that acts as a chemical bridge between water INsoluble chemicals like fats and water. This chemical bridging causes fats (or other water insoluble chemicals) to become more water soluble.

Surfactants (surface active agents) include emulsifiers, solubilizers, soaps, synthetic detergents, and many other chemicals.

Soap is a surface active agent in that it can emulsify or solubilize fats so they become more water soluble, hence soap is a surfactant. Potassium cocoate is a soap hence it is also a surfactant.

A surfactant that is good at cleaning surfaces is called a detergent. Soap, including this potassium cocoate, is a surfactant that cleans, hence soap is a detergent.

Not every surfactant is good at cleaning things, however, so it's good to remember that all detergents are surfactants, but not all surfactants are detergents (cleansers).

@AliOop -- KOH soap can solubilize / emulsify small amounts of fats, so you're probably right they're using only tiny amounts of each oil to keep the total amount low enough the soap can handle the fat load.

DeeAnna, if I misunderstood you I apologize. Based off of your comment I assumed you were being rude because it was rude. At that point I did not comment and you changed it because you probably had a feeling it was a rude way to treat someone.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Now back to our normally scheduled program...

@Soapmaker333 Thank you for posting the ingredients to that shampoo! Since I've never heard of Magnesium Chloride Oil, I googled it.

Magnesium Oil for Hair: Benefits

Amazing stuff!!! Without intending to, I believe you have given me a way better treatment for thickening my hair than nasty old castor oil!

• 1 cup of magnesium chloride flakes
• 1 cup of distilled or purified water

1. Pour magnesium flakes into a glass measuring cup or bowl.
2. Bring water to a boil, then pour over the flakes.
3. Stir until they're completed dissolved.
4. Set aside to cool and away from sunlight.
5. Pour into a glass spray bottle.

I can't wait to try it!

 

[Soapmaker333]

Now back to our normally scheduled program...

@Soapmaker333 Thank you for posting the ingredients to that shampoo! Since I've never heard of Magnesium Chloride Oil, I googled it.

Magnesium Oil for Hair: Benefits

Amazing stuff!!! Without intending to, I believe you have given me a way better treatment for thickening my hair than nasty old castor oil! View attachment 66393

• 1 cup of magnesium chloride flakes
• 1 cup of distilled or purified water

1. Pour magnesium flakes into a glass measuring cup or bowl.
2. Bring water to a boil, then pour over the flakes.
3. Stir until they're completed dissolved.
4. Set aside to cool and away from sunlight.
5. Pour into a glass spray bottle.

I can't wait to try it!
View attachment 66394

Please update me with your process and how it goes!

 

[Soapmaker333]

Great question! This is something I've always wondered.

Thank you! Great minds think alike!

 

[cmzaha]

deleted

 

[Shgre]

can assure you that you are misreading the tone of that comment. It was tongue-in-cheek, not condescending.

To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.

 

[Soapmaker333]

To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.

Thank you, Shgre! I'm no expert, but I am an enthusiast and I'm just trying to learn. Let's just all put this aside and just move on. It's soap, people...

I love the name, by the way!

 

[AliOop]

To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.

Because I know DeeAnna, and she isn’t rude.

And when I don’t know someone, I assume the best interpretation, not the worst. Life is a lot happier that way.

 

[NewbieAnn]

I came to this forum to learn about soap, and DeeAnna's post was educational. Thank you, DeeAnna.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

That ingredient list looks very odd to me. It starts with a CO-based liquid soap (potassium cocoate) and glycerin, followed by a slew of other oils and extracts added. However, no emulsifier is listed,

You are correct. According to this INCI chart, potassium cocoate is the nomenclature for liquid soap made with coconut oil & KOH and I interpreted it as such. Scroll all the way to the end where it says to sub "potassium" for "sodium". I hope we can agree that, as such, no "emulsifier" is necessary. It's liquid shampoo not lotion that would require an emulsifier, yes?

I don't see how there could be enough of any of those additional ingredients to make any meaningful difference in the soap.

Here's the ingredient break down -- I presume in order of highest to lowest % of each:

Water
Coconut oil 50%
Glycerin
Magnesium Chloride oil
Olive oil 30%
Tangerine essential oil (Fragrance)
Linseed (flaxseed) oil 5%
Pumpkinseed oil 5%
Sunflower seed oil 5%
Avocado oil 5%
Extracts: Pine, chamomile, nettle leaf, clover flower, green apple, pineapple.

If I wanted to duplicate this shampoo I would saponify the oils in blue with a combination of water, magnisum chloride flakes & glycerin + KOH to make the lye solution. I would add the Tangerine EO after dilution at the recommended % according to AFRA. I would add the extracts after dilution at the % recommended by the supplier.

Re: Magnesium Chloride "Oil" - Based on my resesarch, I'm thinking it would be best added as part of the liquid used to make the lye, similar to "Faux Sea Salt" in ZNSC.

What puzzles me the most is: Why are some of the ingredients listed colored green???

 

[AliOop]

@Zany_in_CO I am quite aware that this is liquid soap and not lotion. I know you are also aware that liquid soap cannot hold a lot of additives or superfat without an emulsifier or solubizer. Per DeeAnna’s response, she concurred that it can hold some - but not very much. My understanding is that without an additional solubizer like PS80, liquid soap can only hold maybe 2-3% of the total batch weight in additives.

So my point was that all those ingredients after glycerine must be included in only tiny amounts that combined together only add up to maybe 3% of the total batch weight. Otherwise, they would separate out, either floating on top or sinking to the bottom. This, I have to respectfully disagree with the suggested percentages in your post above. There is no way that those amounts would stay solubized or emulsified in the soap without additional chemical assistance.

To the extent you are assuming the other oils you have listed in blue were saponified, that does not square with how the ingredients are listed. Only the coconut oil is noted as saponified (potassium cocoate) - all the others are listed by their non-saponified names. ETA: and potassium hydroxide isn’t listed as an ingredient, either.

So either they weren’t saponified and were added in minuscule amounts, or they were saponified and the label is written incorrectly. Hard to say.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I know you are also aware that liquid soap cannot hold a lot of additives or superfat without an emulsifier or solubizer.

No, I don't know that. But I hear what you're saying...it's an intimidating list of ingredients for a novice LS-er. No worries.

Based on my experience, i.e., 10 years on the Liquid Soap Makers Yahoo group, Polysorbate was often (but NOT always) used to make EOs and FOs water soluble when added to LS after dilution. I still do that in some cases today if needed. A water-soluble shea-butter-in-polysorbate 60 is also available. But I don't see the need for a solubizer in duplicating this shampoo. (@DeeAnna, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. After all, you are our beloved SMF Soapy Science Guru! )

I've tried quite a few duplications over the years and I think my break down is close to the original as a "trial batch" with 0% SF.

I'm no expert, but having taken a second look, I think the ingredients listed in green may be a single ingredient, i.e., olive oil infused with the herbs listed with it, which I have done many times back in the day when I was using a lot of herbal infused oils, and the herbs would be listed separately as "extracts". That should cover your concern about the number of extracts. Likewise, the linseed, pumpkin and sunflower , also listed in green, may be a blend used for some kind of hair treatment??? Not sure.
So thank you! Challenging me to have another look helped!

 

[AliOop]

@Zany_in_CO I think you are missing my point. The list is neither intimidating nor mysterious to me, nor am I a novice LS'er (although admittedly my experience is nowhere as extensive as yours).

I am not saying that your suggested way of making LS is wrong.

I am saying that your suggested "dupe" doesn't fit how the label is written.

The additional oils are not listed as saponified oils. If they were added without saponification, they either must be in very tiny amounts, or a solubizer would have to be included to keep them "mixed in." But no solubizer is included in the ingredient list.

If those oils you noted were saponified, then your suggested dupe would be 100% correct, BUT the label as written would be wrong. No KOH is listed in the ingredients, and the oil names are shown as non-saponified.

Does that clarify?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Only the coconut oil is noted as saponified (potassium cocoate) - all the others are listed by their non-saponified names

Good catch! You're so smart! BUT. That would indicate to me that a syndet surfactant was used, and listed with the INCI nomenclature for coconut oil rather than the common nomenclature of the other oils.

Since there are no "rules" as such for listing the ingredients for soap like there is for lotion and other B&B products, I can assume that's okay. In any case, I would NOT use the syndet in duplicating this shampoo.

 

[AliOop]

Good catch! You're so smart! BUT. That would indicate to me that a syndet surfactant was used, and listed with the INCI nomenclature for coconut oil rather than the common nomenclature of the other oils.

Since there are no "rules" as such for listing the ingredients for soap like there is for lotion and other B&B products, I can assume that's okay. In any case, I would NOT use the syndet in duplicating this shampoo.

I actually tend to agree with your suggested dupe as being the way the soap was actually made. Your idea about infused oils was right on, and one I had not considered.

Bottom line, I just don't agree with how they wrote the label.

 

[cmzaha]

Love ya, Carolyn, but i have to tell ya that statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Most of my life my hair has been medium length bob or some variation of that. During COVID lockdown, it grew to ponytail / bun length. I had it cut the shortest I've ever worn it last year. I needed a "wash & wear" style due to not being able to manage styling it on my own due to old age/ arthritis.

At the moment, it's shoulder length and suffering from the effects of my castor oil experiment rubbed on my scalp to improve thickness. (I need to update that post!) Castor is so hard to wash out that a detergent shampoo X 2 was needed. It ruined my hair!

The funny thing is, maybe not so funny, the same thing happened to my healthy virgin hair that those who suffer damage to their hair due to using lye-based shampoo complain about! ACK! It looks awful.

I have an appt. tomorrow to have a couple inches of dry ends cut off and to have it shaped so I don't have to fiddle with it. Hopefully, it will recover once I get back to using my regular all natural lye-based shampoos. Cross fingers.

View attachment 66387

We are not all the same and not all hair is created equal so some can use soap based and some cannot as we know. My long time as a cosmetologist always seeks through as we know. At least you put up with me without getting offended and I appreciate that.