Help Needed: Jasmine Soap - Beginners Recipe

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monokoi

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Three years ago, I posted to this forum hoping someone could help me recreate the Jasmine soap bar from the MGM Grand. Sadly, noone seemed to know how and getting hold of the ingredients (e.a. NaOH) was much more difficult here than I had thought.

I've had a look at the lye calculator, but they require me to know what oils to use - as well as how much fragrance oil. So, I'm still quite uncertain of what to use, and how much. The later is especially for the fragrance.

The soap has a strong, but not overwhelming smell of jasmine. I can't detect rose, but have read from several places on the net it's part of the mix. The bar is firm, does not go 'soggy' even when almost used up. It also does not leave the hands 'squeaky' clean, so I'm assuming it's somewhat moisturizing.

I would like to make one litre of cold process soap for my first ever batch. So far I have:

- Soap perfume (Rose) 10ml (Artificial)
- Jasmin (Jasminum Grandiflorum) 1ml (Natural)
- NaOH 1kg

If I could get some suggestions as what oils/fats to use, as well as how to approximately dose the fragrance please?

If there was only one way of doing it, but the sheer amount of possibilities and different resulting effects is a bit scary. Not sure if the images are of any help to guess what oils may have been used to make this soap bar.

My Fragrances:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l67wo0cxpr0anc6/20161209_131820.jpg?dl=0

Soap Wrapper:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s52v7azjh1fepio/20161209_132424.jpg?dl=0

Soap Bar Front:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5q8o66lrd4c6o7t/20161209_132548.jpg?dl=0

Soap Bar Back:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nobhkclzpk7tw8x/20161209_132601.jpg?dl=0

This was my last bar - I'd been saving it up for years - and I'm not sure if I'll ever be in Vegas again. :-|

 
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The Efficacious Gentleman

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Is there no ingredients list on the bar? Any link to a website which sells/manufactures it?

Edit - I would make a 500g batch to start with, especially as it's going to be a bit of trial and error to get any recipe right (if it is at all possible!). Not to mention, unless the jasmin is enormously strong then 1ml is not going to be much use. In 1l it would be 0.1% and many "non harming" eos are used at 5%
 
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shunt2011

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I recommend you start by reading the beginners forum as well as postings here. You will find quite a few recipes. You also need to use a soap calculator. It's not an option. Are you opposed to using lard? What oils/butters do you have on hand? Do you have a mold to make soap? A stickblender? A good scale?
 

monokoi

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Is there no ingredients list on the bar? Any link to a website which sells/manufactures it?

Edit - I would make a 500g batch to start with, especially as it's going to be a bit of trial and error to get any recipe right (if it is at all possible!). Not to mention, unless the jasmin is enormously strong then 1ml is not going to be much use. In 1l it would be 0.1% and many "non harming" eos are used at 5%
Thank you for your reply. There is no list of ingredients on the bar. The suppliers website: www.sunbaysupplies.com is no help at all. I've written to the MGM but not even gotten a response. I've phoned several places in the US, but no luck. Seems to be a big secret - or noone has cared so far.

It's pure jasmine oil, and was quite expensive. About €17 per ml!
http://taoasis.com/de/produkte/detail/jasmin-rein-1-ml-12100138.html

But I have no comparison as to if it's considered strong or not. Making 500g seems like a good amount, too.

I recommend you start by reading the beginners forum as well as postings here. You will find quite a few recipes. You also need to use a soap calculator. It's not an option. Are you opposed to using lard? What oils/butters do you have on hand? Do you have a mold to make soap? A stickblender? A good scale?
Thank you for your reply. I've read through a few recipes, but the issue is that I'm trying to recreate a specific result. As mentioned above, I've had a look at the calculators as well, but without knowing what oils are to be used and the ratio, I'm stuck there. I'm not opposed to animal products, whatever works best. But I'd like to know if any oils compliment the jasmine scent better than others.

A stickblender, scale, mold, saftey attire - it's all here. No oils yet, that's the last thing I'd still need to purchase.
 

earlene

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Monokoi, I have a couple of thoughts that maybe you could clarify for me.

First I would Hazzard an educated guess that if this was hotel soap, i.e., what they provide guests staying in the hotel, it's probably a syndet bar.

Or, is it soap you bought at their gift shop? It's been a while since I was inside the MGM Grand myself, so I'm not really picturing their gift shop(s), but that seems a likely possibility, especially if it's a larger sized bar.

In either case, how long ago did you acquire this soap? It sounds like at least 3 years ago or more, so I can see why you'd want to be able to duplicate it if it still holds the scent so well!

In either case, who did you write to at the MGM? The head of the purchasing Department? I wouldn't expect an answer, unless you said you wanted to place a large order yourself, something like that.

Did you call or write the soap manufacturer? And if so, what response did you get? I am guessing that if their product is as desirable as it sounds, they are not likely to share trade secrets. But due to labeling regulations in the US, I do believe they would be required to advise a customer of the ingredient list. However, that may be a bit murky if the customer asking does not reside in the US. I am not really up on all that. But at least if you want a list of ingredients as a starting point, that's what I would reference in my inquiry.
 

Susie

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We have no way to find out what is in that bar. None. I am not sure how you expect us to find that recipe.

1 ml of Jasmine EO is not going to scent even 500 ml of soap. Period. No matter how much it cost.
 

earlene

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Okay, I see from your edit, you added some photos. It is one of their guest soaps, I see. So I am highly confident that it is a syndet bar (synthetic detergent bar).

And I did look at SunBay's website. They are not the manufacturer. They are a supply company. So if you want an ingredient list, you will have to contact the purchasing Department at SunBay (their address and phone number is on their website) and ask them to give you the name of the manufacturer. Good luck with that, except if you mention the US regulations about ingredients lists, perhaps the purchasing supervisor may give you an answer. Then you can contact the actual manufacturer.

As for my educated guess about the bar (I have stayed in a lot of hotels all over the US and elsewhere, so I have a lot of experience with using hotel soaps), here a few impressions. The manufacturer probably makes that bar for many different locations, but packages it differently based on the customer's requirements. The manufacturer uses a standard mold that many hotel soaps are made just like that. The fragrance can be changed and the rest of the formula may remain the same. The fragrance is not an MGM signature, as I have seen posts online about the lemongrass scented soap at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas as well.

So what I suggest, rather than going through all that process of trying in vain to obtain the ingredient list for this particular bar, is to start reading Swift Crafty Monkey's website about syndet bars.

Here are a couple of links about syndet bars.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/01/iron-chemist-results-sci.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-shampoo-bars-overview.html
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=26665
 

monokoi

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We have no way to find out what is in that bar. None. I am not sure how you expect us to find that recipe. 1 ml of Jasmine EO is not going to scent even 500 ml of soap. Period. No matter how much it cost.
Thank you for your reply. I thought it's worth a shot. Maybe someone has already done it, maybe it's not a soap that's exclusive to the MGM. I'm crazy for that soap and put it into my mind to recreate it, asking here is the only hope I've had.
It's the scent I'd like to copy, I'm aware that my chances are slim but I thought it might be worth a try.

I can't imagine the hotel soap uses the same oil as I have purchased, but I'd like the soap to be natural as far as possible. I have no clue to how much soap one ml of pure jasmine oil can be used to make, I appreiciate all the advice I can get.
 

dixiedragon

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Jasmine essential oil (or absolute) is EXTREMELY expensive. I highly doubt that's what is in the soap! Since you've already purchased it, you may want to consider using it in whipped shea butter or a lotion bar - I suggest those because they are easy to make and don't require a lot of special stuff. For example, for whipped shea butter, you need shea and some liquid oil - you could use the olive oil you have in your cabinet. For winter time, try 90% shea and 10% olive. Heat the shea enough to get it soft, add the olive and beat it with a mixer. once you have a texture you like, add a bit of your jasmine.

From what I can tell, you just want to re-create this bar, vs getting into soaping? Some of our members are sellers, it might be helpful to you to connect with them, give them a sample sliver of your bar and see if they can re-create it? Are you in the UK? Maybe contact Gracefruit, a supplier of soaping supplies, mail them a sliver of your soap and ask them if they have an FO that comes close?
 

monokoi

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Okay, I see from your edit, you added some photos. It is one of their guest soaps, I see. So I am highly confident that it is a syndet bar (synthetic detergent bar).

Here are a couple of links about syndet bars.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/01/iron-chemist-results-sci.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-shampoo-bars-overview.html
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=26665
Thank you for all the information given. The last bar is more than four years old now and has turned a bit flakey and musky. The jasmine secent though is still strongly present.

After reading most of the information supplied in the links you've posted, I must say I'm quite intimidated by the complexity of the process.

Maybe I should have asked if anyone has a good recipe for CP jasmine soap, and keep my fingers crossed it has a scent similar to the one I have. The reading you've provided was interesting none the less, and I might even try a syndet bar once I've used up the materials I've purchased for the cold pour.
 

dixiedragon

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Here's my base recipe:

45% lard (you can substitute tallow or palm)
20% coconut
30% olive
5% castor

I use a 5% superfat. Do you have a scale and a stick blender?
 

monokoi

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Jasmine essential oil (or absolute) is EXTREMELY expensive. I highly doubt that's what is in the soap! Since you've already purchased it, you may want to consider using it in whipped shea butter or a lotion bar - I suggest those because they are easy to make and don't require a lot of special stuff. For example, for whipped shea butter, you need shea and some liquid oil - you could use the olive oil you have in your cabinet. For winter time, try 90% shea and 10% olive. Heat the shea enough to get it soft, add the olive and beat it with a mixer. once you have a texture you like, add a bit of your jasmine.
Thank you for your reply. The scent is what I love about the soap, everything else is secondary. It was only after reading up, that I learnt a lotion bar is not soap. :) As the crude man I am, I'm not sure what to do with whipped shea butter. Here's a recipe for a lotion bar I found, it's supposed to be good to sensitive skin, as well as eczema scars.

1/3 cup beef tallow
1/3 cup shea butter, cocoa butter or mango butter
2 Tablespoons beeswax
20+ drops of essential oil

Look good to you?

I might give this a try and start another attempt to make jasmine soap after the holidays. You're right, I'm not planning on making soap often - but I do plan one once a year, as it also makes a nice homemade gift.

Here's my base recipe:

45% lard (you can substitute tallow or palm)
20% coconut
30% olive
5% castor

I use a 5% superfat. Do you have a scale and a stick blender?

Great thank you, looks like you posted this while I was answering your previous post. Yes, I've got a stick blender and a scale (+/- 1g).

What is a 5% superfat please? Isn't this used to describe 'excess' fat in a soap?
 

dixiedragon

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Yes, superfat is the excess fat in the soap. It is the amount of oil above what the lye will saponify (turn into soap). If you look at a lye calculator - I like soap calc - 5% is the default. it is a good starting point.
 

CaraBou

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If its really the scent you are looking for, you may be on the prowl awhile. It is not easy to recreate scents, especially when you have no solid starting point in what they actually used. There are companies that can attempt to recreate for you, but that's economically prohibitive for personal use. Jasmine EO is too expensive for most people to use in the quantities needed for soap (even for those who sell), so it is more likely they used a fragrance oil that exhibits some of the scent characteristics. Here are a few examples; note you can order small samples to see if they're close.

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/jasmine-fragrance-oil

https://www.brambleberry.com/Search.aspx?k=jasmine+fragrance+oil

http://www.bulkapothecary.com/search.php?search_query=jasmine+fragrance+oil
 
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dixiedragon

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I've never used tallow in a lotion bar, but as long as it is shelf stable it should be fine. You may find you enjoy a lotion bar, especially on dry legs in the winter!

I may have missed it - are you in the UK? If so, Gracefruit has a Jasmine FO (fragrance oil) that looks promising.

Another option for using the Jasmine you have (vs an FO) would be to rebatch some soap. I don't recommend this, it's a huge PITA. Make some soap and shred it with a cheese shredder or a food processor. Mix it with just enough water (or vegetable milk or aloe vera, if you are feeling adventurous) to moisten. Melt the scraps down in a slow cooker. When it is liquid enough - sort of gloppy, but will go into a mold - add your jasmine and glop into the mold.
 

monokoi

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Thank you for providing those links, now I know what to look for when making a jasmine soap. The brambleberry website is great, I'll have to see if I can find a similar shop in Europe.

I may have missed it - are you in the UK? If so, Gracefruit has a Jasmine FO (fragrance oil) that looks promising.
No, I'm from Germany - but I think shipping here should be possible. If mailing them a sliver of soap is an option, I'd surely give it a try.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I am indeed. There is a great supplier in Germany if you want to make it yourself, or If you want to send me a bit I can see how it compares to some of my bars recipe-wise and send you my closet match, then we could look at getting a decent jasmin scent sorted out.
 

monokoi

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I am indeed. There is a great supplier in Germany if you want to make it yourself, or If you want to send me a bit I can see how it compares to some of my bars recipe-wise and send you my closet match, then we could look at getting a decent jasmin scent sorted out.
:clap: Thank you for the offer. I'd really like to make some myself, it's a tick off the bucket list. I'd buy a bar or two, sure. Is a one cm piece sufficient as sample?
 
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The Efficacious Gentleman

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As much as you can bear to part with is best - too small and it could struggle to lather.

For making it yourself, check out Manske for soaping supplies - but the oils like coconut, lard, tallow, Palm, and olive are very easy to find in shops in Germany. Tallow isn't available here, so I even have to get my tallow from Germany if I want to buy it
 

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