Did I over react to this?

[Sallyj]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone else would react to this in the same way as me. I was browsing online and came across a UK wholesale soap company. I had a look on the site and all the soap was melt and pour. Nothing wrong with that. I then had a look at the FAQ page and one of the questions was "is your product 100% natural" the answer is what really annoyed me. They stated that their soap was melt and pour and was not 100% natural. They then went on to say that no soap is 100% natural and anyone who says that their soap is natural is quite simply lying! I was so incensed that I emailed them to complain about this statement.

This has really really wound me up.

Is it just me or would others be just as annoyed.

Sally

 

[Obsidian]

They are actually right, no soap is 100% natural unless you are making your own lye with wood ash. The lye we use is man made, therefore, not natural.

 

[Sallyj]

But the lye is not in the finished product. All you are left with are the natural ingredients you put in.

 

[pamielynn]

But you still have to make it WITH the lye. It's an ongoing debate. It's along the same lines as "my soap is organic because all the raw ingredients are organic." But that does not make your SOAP organic.

"Natural" is such a subjective term.

 

[Obsidian]

But you still have to make it WITH the lye. It's an ongoing debate. It's along the same lines as "my soap is organic because all the raw ingredients are organic." But that does not make your SOAP organic.

"Natural" is such a subjective term.

This exactly, people interpret natural to mean different things. To me, no store bought oil is natural. Just something about pressing plant matter with industrial machines that ruins it for me.
Then there is oil that has been filtered, refined, homogenized, or otherwise had "things" done to it. Ever use milk? is it fresh from the animal down the street? If not, then it isn't natural either.
Dang near everything we buy from a store has been messed with in some way.
Even if you use the best quality organic oils you can buy, somewhere along the line, its been tampered with.

 

[Sallyj]

I'm sorry but I disagree. We really have to jump through hoops in the EU with labeling ect and we do not have to list lye as an ingredient because it is not in the finished product. It is gone, no traces so therefore all you have left are natural ingredients. So the soap is natural.

 

[Derpina Bubbles]

I'm sorry but I disagree. We really have to jump through hoops in the EU with labeling ect and we do not have to list lye as an ingredient because it is not in the finished product. It is gone, no traces so therefore all you have left are natural ingredients. So the soap is natural.

Technically the lye isn't used up and gone. It's transformed. Sure, it no longer exists in the soap in it's original form, but it doesn't just vanish. The molecules of the lye and the oils are broken apart and then recombined into different compounds. It's not however gone. Just like the oils are transformed.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I'm with Bubbles and the others on this I'm afraid - and I'm an EU soaper.

The lye is not removed from the process - it reacts with the oils to make soap. If you made a perfectly 0% sf soap, it would technically contain no oils and no lye. Just 100% soap, which is not oil and it is not lye - it is what we have when lye and oils combine.

As nothing that you put in is actually taken out, then how can an unnatural product combine with something else to become natural? Natural oils + unnatural lye = non-natural end result.

By definition, soap itself is not natural as we make it up ourselves. Soap is manmade (personmade) rather than natural.

Even if you do make something with all natural ingredients, it is only made with all natural ingredients - as you have made the thing, it is not itself natural.

 

[roseb]

In my humble opinion unless it's a plant that I can pull from the ground and bathe with...it's not natural. Think about it, even the oils we use have been processed in some way. Soap is not a natural product...it is a handcrafted product and that is quite a difference.

 

[Lindy]

But you still have to make it WITH the lye. It's an ongoing debate. It's along the same lines as "my soap is organic because all the raw ingredients are organic." But that does not make your SOAP organic.

"Natural" is such a subjective term.

Actually if you use nothing but Certified Organic ingredients with the exception of lye you can be certified as Certified Organic.

 

[Saponista]

http://www.cosmos-standard.org/docs/COSMOS-standard_v1.1_310111.pdf

This is the EU guidelines for 'natural' cosmetics so feel free to read all 22 pages and decide!

I think it's a really subjective issue though.

 

[DeeAnna]

In the US, soap cannot be legally labeled "100% organic" or "organic". It could be legally labeled "made with organic..." with the proper qualifications:

Multi-ingredient agricultural products in the “made with” category must meet these criteria:

-- At least 70 percent of the product must be certified organic ingredients (excluding salt and water).
-- Any remaining agricultural products are not required to be organically produced but must be produced without excluded methods (see page 1).
-- Non-agricultural products must be specifically allowed on the National List.
-- Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.

May state “made with organic (insert up to three ingredients or ingredient categories).” Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere, represent finished product as organic, or state “made with organic ingredients.” Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other mark.

Source: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446

 

[boyago]

By definition, soap itself is not natural as we make it up ourselves. Soap is manmade (personmade) rather than natural.

That's why I call my soap "supernatural".

I stay away from heavily processed stuff and prefer my materials for all stuff not just my soaps as close to the source as possible but I kind of file the "natural" label though not quite as lame in the same vein as "chemical free". There is plenty of bad stuff that's natural too. Asbestos, arsenic, rattle snakes and cats are all natural too but nothing I would want in my house.

 

[eyeroll]

...and cats are all natural too but nothing I would want in my house.

Ooooh, those are fighting words to some people. Better get in your fighter's stance.

I agree with you though (on the uselessness of the word "natural." And on the cats.)

 

[FlybyStardancer]

... and cats are all natural too but nothing I would want in my house.

Ooooh, those are fighting words to some people. Better get in your fighter's stance.

I agree with you though ...on the cats.

I'll take you both on! Put those dukes up!

 

[judymoody]

To get back to the OP's original question...

While I agree that "natural" is somewhat meaningless when it comes to soap (it is manufactured from processed ingredients), there are degrees of how far the soap is from its constituent parts as they once existed in nature.

So, for example, I would find it easier to swallow "natural" claims about unscented soap made from organic oils, lye, and herbs than I would M&P soap that is colored with FD&C lab colors, sprinkled with glitter, and having a fragrance that smells like Fruit Loops.

 

[MzMolly65]

ummm .. like this "organic" soap I bought at a farmer's market .. before I was smart enough to read labels.

From their website: (I notice the shifty muppet doesn't list ingredients on the website)


This product is:
- wrapped in BIODEGRADABLE plastic
- hugged by RECYCLABLE card and tape
- handmade with ORGANIC oils & butters
- FREE from paraben phthalate SLS formaldehyde nasties
ZERO WASTE & SUPPORTS SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE
___________________________________________________
Ideal use:
- chopped in half for cleaning the body
- cut into slivers and used for travelling soap
- left over soap nubs wrapped in a dishcloth to wash dishes
- grated into small pieces and dissolved into
2 litres of water for a general cleaner
add 15% vinegar to the solution for a disinfectant

Suitable for all skin types as well as babies. It stays firm in your shower due to a unique blend of sustainably farmed, organic, cold press butters and non-GMO vegetable glycerin. We use lush coconut and sustainably sourced palm butters with gentle acids to balance the pH of our soap to your skin. This is no ordinary soap. Lets keep cleaning simple? 3.5 oz / 100 gram soap. No dyes, no artificial smells. Ingredients from nature returns to nature.


** on the actual soap I bought, ingredients listed.
Aqua
Glycerin
Sodium Palmate
Sodium Cocoate
Sorbitol
Essential oil blend
Decyl Glucoside
Sodium Chloride
Palm acid
Coconut acid
Pentasodium Pentatate
Tetrasodium Etidronate

So .. while I'm quite sure the maker of this soap is very certain it's organic and wholesome .. *I* disagree. It's a matter of perception and principle.

 

[clhigh29]

Nobody I know cares if my soap is natural or organic. They like that it's handmade.

 

[pamielynn]

ummm .. like this "organic" soap I bought at a farmer's market .. before I was smart enough to read labels.

From their website: (I notice the shifty muppet doesn't list ingredients on the website)


This product is:
- wrapped in BIODEGRADABLE plastic
- hugged by RECYCLABLE card and tape
- handmade with ORGANIC oils & butters
- FREE from paraben phthalate SLS formaldehyde nasties
ZERO WASTE & SUPPORTS SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE
___________________________________________________
Ideal use:
- chopped in half for cleaning the body
- cut into slivers and used for travelling soap
- left over soap nubs wrapped in a dishcloth to wash dishes
- grated into small pieces and dissolved into
2 litres of water for a general cleaner
add 15% vinegar to the solution for a disinfectant

Suitable for all skin types as well as babies. It stays firm in your shower due to a unique blend of sustainably farmed, organic, cold press butters and non-GMO vegetable glycerin. We use lush coconut and sustainably sourced palm butters with gentle acids to balance the pH of our soap to your skin. This is no ordinary soap. Lets keep cleaning simple? 3.5 oz / 100 gram soap. No dyes, no artificial smells. Ingredients from nature returns to nature.


** on the actual soap I bought, ingredients listed.
Aqua
Glycerin
Sodium Palmate
Sodium Cocoate
Sorbitol
Essential oil blend
Decyl Glucoside
Sodium Chloride
Palm acid
Coconut acid
Pentasodium Pentatate
Tetrasodium Etidronate

So .. while I'm quite sure the maker of this soap is very certain it's organic and wholesome .. *I* disagree. It's a matter of perception and principle.

Nice M&P ingredient list there. :Kitten Love:

 

[MzMolly65]

Nice M&P ingredient list there. :Kitten Love:

Yes, but like others have stated does that make it any less "organic" if the majority of the ingredients used were organic prior to being mixed with lye.

I would say it is not, but I'm sure the seller would put up a good argument why this soap is.

It's each person's perspective and opinion.