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Evans

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Hi All, I'm new to the forum & will post a brief bio after reading a few of the ones posted in the get to know you area of the forum.

My partner & I have made about 70#s of CP soap so far in 5# molds & an starting to get the swing of things. I have a question about using beeswax as a hardener because I feel the soap could be a tad harder in the center and am wonder the technique of putting beeswax into our mixture.

The recipe is simple:
h2o - 571 g
Lye 209 g
CO 300 g
Crisco w/palm 751 g
OO 150 g
Saff oil 300 g
at trace fragrance 3 oz. & oxide

I shoot for a fat/lye mix 107* to 110*.

The beeswax guy said he pours at 160 but is viscous at 120*.
I figure I'll melt it & add at trace after the fragrance & oxide.

For those of you that have used beeswax, does this sound about right? And in a 5# batch of soap how much beeswax should I use? I'm thinking ~20 g (2/3 oz) Any other tips? Thx in advance for your input. :D
 
I have some beeswax floating around that I was going to use but decided not too after asking here. Seems like it can cause problems in soap like overheating so I don't want to ruin a whole batch and waste oils if it caused me problems.

Someone experienced in it might be able to help you out with good advice but if you want harder bars have you tried increasing the hard oils like coconut and palm, or even shea butter?
 
i have a recipe where i use it at 3%. i know they say just use a small amount but i like the way my soap hardens with that recipe. i melt beeswax and oils together and then mix with lye. happy soaping
 
I have used beeswax before with success. I melted the beeswax with my oils, I'm not sure whether adding it at trace would work? The high melting point of Beeswax makes it a bit fiddly to work with, if you melt it and try and pour it, it could set before its combined into the soap batter (this is just a guess).

The usual rate at which it is used it between 1 and 2% so adding 20grams to the recipe mentioned, seems about right.

I no longer use beeswax, but use butters instead. Cocoa Butter at as low as 5% will give you a harder bar. Also I'm not familiar with using Safflower, but you could sub some of that for your olive oil. OO actually makes quite hard soap (although soapcalc does not say this).

Also, when you say that it is softer in the middle - this could be due to the water having not yet evaporated fully, you may find that the bars get harder with a longer cure?
You are using quite a bit of water, if you feel confident in trying a water discount, you may cut some of the cure time.
 
Wow, thanks for all the great info. I'll bone up on it a bit more and when I feel a bit more confident I'll give it a go.

The bars aren't horrible, I think I may be too picky and they have seemed to have gotten better w/ time... :oops:

We switched to the saff oil for a lighter color bar with sucess.

Again, thank you...I have many more question but will search topics before I start asking them. :) Anyway, so far it's a fun hobby...
 
Evans said:
Wow, thanks for all the great info. I'll bone up on it a bit more and when I feel a bit more confident I'll give it a go.
Click to expand...

Did you have a chance to try it? I'm thinking of using a bit of beeswax in soap, as well, and am just curious as to what you might have learned.

Thanks!
 
Only used it once in CP, added at trace.

It works, but make sure your soap paste has the right temperature (which is few degrees over the melted beeswax).

This is what I do with suspect ingredients: add them at trace and mix very slowly.
 
Fragola said:
Only used it once in CP, added at trace.

It works, but make sure your soap paste has the right temperature (which is few degrees over the melted beeswax).

This is what I do with suspect ingredients: add them at trace and mix very slowly.
Click to expand...
Soap paste???? Do you mean soap that is at trace? I don't add oils or butters at trace. That's a waste of time and an old wife's tale. At trace, lye is still very active and it will take whatever it wants. There is no guarantee that any particular oil or butter will end up as your superfat. The exception to this is when you add any oil or butter after the cook. I use beeswax in every batch, melt it all together then cool it to about 110 degrees.
 
Soap paste???? Do you mean soap that is at trace?
Click to expand...
Yup.

It's not soap yet, and I heard it called this way.

That's a waste of time and an old wife's tale. At trace, lye is still very active and it will take whatever it wants. There is no guarantee that any particular oil or butter will end up as your superfat.
Click to expand...

A little jumpy today, aren't we? Who dared to say "superfat" ?!

The reason I do this is to slow down the reaction time when using oils or fragrances that might accelerate trace. I suggested this method here, because some suggest that beeswax can seize the soap. Probably depends on how much you add. Forgot to mention: better to melt the wax in a little oil.

By the way, it is possible to trace a soap so strongly that it's completely done and no active lye exists.
 
That was just a heads up since that subject seems to come up over and over again.

As far a strong trace; soap starts hardening when it goes past the pudding stage if you don't gel. It can take up to three days for the saponification to complete so the soap no longer zaps.

I add liquid lecithin to troublesome FO's as that slows trace. That works much better for me then adding the fragrance at trace.
 
Yes, normally it takes few days, I was just saying that last time it went from pudding to gel and to no-zap in little over half hour. After which I poured it into the mold ...

Thanks for the lecithin suggestion, I'll use it if I can get my hands on liquid lecithin.

That being said, I do believe that lye will eat first the molecules which are closest, but can't seem to find a way to prove it :p
 
Right now I use a wire whisk for quick excelerators and not the SB, but I have a small jar of lecithin here to try with lilac next time just to see if it works!
 
Fragola said:
Yes, normally it takes few days, I was just saying that last time it went from pudding to gel and to no-zap in little over half hour. After which I poured it into the mold ...

Thanks for the lecithin suggestion, I'll use it if I can get my hands on liquid lecithin.

That being said, I do believe that lye will eat first the molecules which are closest, but can't seem to find a way to prove it :p
Click to expand...

I've been through this with several chemists, including one who is an accomplished soapmaker. In an emulsified mix, in which the lye is carried by the water, it's all the same to the lye - and the superfat is NOT more likely to be left intact.

The term "soap paste" is generally used when making liquid soap - it's the saponified mass before it's been diluted to make it liquid. Not to say it's the only definition, but it's the only context in which I've heard or seen it used. I tend to refer to the emulsified mix of lye water and oils as the "soap batter" but I could have made that up (it looks like cake batter to me, and clearly indicates it's not done yet).
 
I've used beeswax in most of my batches, and I've always melted them together with the other oils before adding lye. It works just perfect that way and accelerates the trace, which is great for me as I (still, after several batches ;)) mix everything by hand.

Today I made a HUUUGE mistake and tried to add the melted beeswax at trace. Not going to do it again. I was quite sure it would seize and form clumps if I added it without any oil, so I melted it with some OO and hoped it'd fix the problem. Nope, it did not. I ended up with some terrible wax clumps floating in the soap paste and decided never to do that again :roll:

Fortunately, that batch was going to be "clumpy" from the start so this little so-called surprise didn't ruin it. I used grated soap from a previous batch that went horribly wrong so the wax clumps just... disappeared in the mess :lol: Right now it looks a bit like granite. I wonder what is it with me and soaps looking like stones?! :shock:
 
I've been through this with several chemists, including one who is an accomplished soapmaker. In an emulsified mix, in which the lye is carried by the water, it's all the same to the lye - and the superfat is NOT more likely to be left intact.
Click to expand...

Am I wrong in assuming that as saponification progresses, you have less lye in your pot than originally ? Which to my mind, implies that the superfat molecules have a decreasing statistical probability of finding a free lye molecule to interact with. My little statistical background doesn't come from chemistry, but I would be surprised to hear that statistics doesn't apply to chemistry.

Or couldn't you incorporate the superfat in such a manner that it does not fully mix into the batter ? For example, shea butter shavings into a batter cooled below the melting point of shea ?


Today I made a HUUUGE mistake and tried to add the melted beeswax at trace.
Click to expand...
What were your temps ? I am pretty sure that was your problem ...
 
Fragola said:
Today I made a HUUUGE mistake and tried to add the melted beeswax at trace.
Click to expand...
What were your temps ? I am pretty sure that was your problem ...
Click to expand...

No idea, I never measure temps :oops: That could be the problem, but I think I won't bother trying that again and will just go back to melting the wax together with oils because it works better for me.
 
beeswax's melting point is over 140F, and since most soap at 120 or less I don't see how adding BW at trace could be anything other than a mess for most.

regarding the amount of lye, at trace the VAST majority of the lye has not reacted and the decrease is negligible. I don't have the numbers (lost my bookmarks and such) but as I said, I've discussed this with knowledgeable people. My background in statistics is more related to Food Chemistry, but it fits in well with soapmaking.

If you mix in chunks of fat below the melting point, you will get localized areas of excess fat. Not really a grand idea, in my book but hey - I'm not everyone.

If you want your special oil remaining after the saponification, try HP. It'll get you much closer (still no guarantee - soap is not particularly stable and those molecules tend to flip around a bit).
 
Too bad the visual about the wolves, collies and sheep is no longer on Miller soap site. That was an excellent explanation of interaction of oils and lye.
 

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