Why does liquid soap shampoo leave hair greasy?

Discussion in 'Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum' started by kcbitsupply, Mar 1, 2016.

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  1. Apr 25, 2016 #21

    Susie

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    My issue is that if I had only had Catherine Failor as a source of instruction as a new liquid soap maker, I would have thrown my hands up and given up. However, I benefited from other sources of information. I can, now, appreciate some of her info. But she does not make her info readily available in a methodical format for the new soaper. And her methods are, I repeat, unnecessary and outdated. We have ways to ensure complete saponification that do not involve making lye heavy soap and then neutralizing.

    I am not saying that she did not contribute GREATLY to the home soapmaker for making liquid soap. She did. It is just that we have much easier, and less intimidating to new soapers, methods of making liquid soap.
     
  2. Apr 25, 2016 #22

    topofmurrayhill

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    You don't have any way to do that. The only difference is that you don't care whether you get complete saponification, but if you did you would have to use a lye excess. How else would you do it?
     
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  3. Apr 25, 2016 #23

    Susie

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    I make soap using a reliable modern calculator. The only time I do not get complete saponification of the oils is when I voluntarily and purposefully choose to use a superfat.

    Using a lye excess leaves you with unsaponified lye (whether NaOH or KOH). Why would you choose to have lye heavy soap that you then need to neutralize? That is making extra work for yourself. And having those extra steps (especially with lye heavy soap!) is enough to frighten new soapers off. You should talk to a few after they have seen a video of that whole process!

    One of my goals here is to de-mystify soapmaking, especially liquid soapmaking, to help newbies feel less intimidated on trying it. I am sorry if your goals differ from mine, TOMH.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  4. Apr 25, 2016 #24

    ngian

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    Well Susie I think that TOMH is saying that we can never have complete saponification as you have stated in his quote because we never know the real sap values of the oils we use in every batch,except if we make a lye heavy soap.

    I guess you meant to say in the first place that we can have better control of a small superfat with modern calculators.

    Friendly Nikos
     
  5. Apr 26, 2016 #25

    topofmurrayhill

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    I'm not talking about a goal, a preference or an opinion. I'm trying to point out where you uncharacteristically have your facts wrong.

    There is NO difference between your lye calculations and Failor's. There is no such thing as a "modern, reliable calculator."

    1000 g oil

    20% coconut is 200 x .183 = 36.6 g NaOH
    80% palm is 800 x .142 = 113.6 g NaOH

    Total 150.2 g NaOH

    That's how I figure it, how Failor figures it, and how YOU figure it. There's nothing more modern or accurate. So when you say that the book is outdated because we have reliable lye calculators now, those words make no sense.

    Failor calculates a lye excess because she wants to ensure complete saponification, while you don't calculate a lye excess because you don't care about complete saponification -- or if you do care then you're going about it the wrong way because your lye calculator doesn't do that.

    The SAP value of coconut oil is normally between .178 and .188. The SAP value of palm oil is normally between .135 and .146. What are your oils? You don't know, I don't know and the lye calculator doesn't know. That number I just calculated for no lye discount could be -- and likely is -- off base depending on the real SAP values of my oils and how pure and fresh my caustic is. Calculating a so-called "0% superfat" can still result in a significant superfat or lye excess. That's why lye discount is a better term.

    That is the exact and only reason Failor calculates a lye excess to ensure complete saponification. That's why your claim to know if you have complete saponification is mistaken. Your lye calculator is only estimating. And that's why we calculate a lye discount when making soap. Not to get 5% residual oil in the soap, but to get more than 0%.

    So yeah, current techniques are simpler and work and maybe are best, but it's just a different approach. And lest we feel too superior, what has taken root now is dissolving KOH in glycerin (not saying that you do it), which is ridiculous.

    It's just crazy to heat glycerin to 200-250 degrees, add KOH flakes that threaten to make it boil over, and turn it into a solution that's both scalding hot and highly caustic. You can take that same amount of glycerin and combine it with 50% concentration lye instead of straight KOH and it works exactly the same way.

    Adding a solvent to the saponification process is a good idea though. Failor has an analogous solvent method that uses alcohol, but glycerin or propylene glycol are less trouble. So that's an improvement.
     
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  6. Apr 26, 2016 #26

    Susie

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    OK, fair enough. We are all just estimating. However, I will stand by the techniques/methods being simpler now. It is just not necessary to take all those extra steps with all those extra ingredients. And I am going to stick to what I said about Catherine Failor's book not being laid out well. It really is a nightmare for newbies. If ever there was a book that could do with a re-edit and update, that is it. She really does have some good info, just very difficult to root it out when you are new.

    BTW, I mix my KOH with half the total liquid amount in water, then mix the glycerin in with the oils. Again, avoiding an extra step where it makes little or no difference to the outcome. Glad you agree with that one.
     
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  7. Apr 26, 2016 #27

    topofmurrayhill

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    Yep, I knew you weren't using the dangerous approach. The alternative I sometimes hear is to replace "1 part KOH, 3 parts glycerin" with "1 part KOH, 1 part water, 2 parts glycerin." I'm down with dissolving the KOH in water, but I think it may be counterproductive to lower the amount of glycerin when you do so. I've been trying some things and what is looking good right now is "1 part KOH, 1 part water, 3 parts glycerin". Melt oils, add glycerin to oils, add lye and stir. Particularly convenient to SB for 60 seconds or so. Then you can walk away and get the same easy results without the scalding caustic.
     
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  8. May 2, 2016 #28

    SugarLump

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    I am sorry, but I disagree. I am a "newbie" and I find her books fascinating. They have given me so much information and have helped me understand the process a lot better. I think it just depends on your point of view and personality. I am a nerd. I love science and learning. I don't just want to get to the end result (soap), I want to understand WHY and HOW I got there. For me if I understand the process and the mechanics of it all, it helps me to master the technique, and I have confidence in my work and the end result.

    But to each there own. But I agree with TOMH, about dissolving KOH in glycerine. Scary.
     
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  9. May 2, 2016 #29

    lsg

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    Unless you have very soft water, liquid soap will not work well in your hair. The soap does not rinse out of hair thoroughly and leaves hair feeling gummy.
     
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  10. May 7, 2018 #30

    Vandam

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    My two cents on this would be the other products your daughters are using on their hair. If the products contain silicone or non-water soluble silicones, you need a soap with sls or other cleansers to wash it out. If you don't the natural soap can't clean. Look up curly girl method on naturally curly (sorry I don't have the link)it may answer your question.
     
  11. May 7, 2018 #31

    shunt2011

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    This post is 2 years old.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  12. May 12, 2018 #32

    VonnieDeak

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    One thing when I am using www.soapee.com lye calculator I don't superfat any or use 1%. I have noticed when I superfat at high amounts that my hair is greasy. Here is a good recipe that I use for liquid shampoo that isn't greasy: www.suchsoaps.com
     
  13. May 12, 2018 #33

    shunt2011

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    Again, this post is 2 years old. Start a new one please and thanks!
     

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