Vinegar and Citric Acid

[Megan]

So, interesting development!

I read for a whole day about using each of these ingredients in my soap and it seemed to me like this would be a great combination for the effects I was looking for. Then after making my two batches (one high coconut oil with a bit of shea, and one olive oil castille) I must have put in the magic search terms which led me to two forum threads saying people were having issues with this combo! Man, I thought, too bad I didn't read these threads before making my soap (but were small batches so Oh well!).

Thing is, I think I may have stumbled upon something! My high coconut oil soap did not turn out. It was a crumbly mess full of stearic mottling. But...my castille soap looks great. Pretty hard after a day and a half, and smooth as butter to cut. Of course: I can't be 100 percent sure this will be a good soap until I'm able to use it...

So>>>my thoughts are: maybe this combination of vinegar and citric don't work in a high solid oil/butter soap, but are okay in a high olive oil soap. Or maybe it has to do with the high superfat I used in my coconut oil soap.

At this point I'm not sure what is the cause of the one batch turning out versus the other not...but I am super interested in this.

 

[cmzaha]

So, interesting development!

I read for a whole day about using each of these ingredients in my soap and it seemed to me like this would be a great combination for the effects I was looking for. Then after making my two batches (one high coconut oil with a bit of shea, and one olive oil castille) I must have put in the magic search terms which led me to two forum threads saying people were having issues with this combo! Man, I thought, too bad I didn't read these threads before making my soap (but were small batches so Oh well!).

Thing is, I think I may have stumbled upon something! My high coconut oil soap did not turn out. It was a crumbly mess full of stearic mottling. But...my castille soap looks great. Pretty hard after a day and a half, and smooth as butter to cut. Of course: I can't be 100 percent sure this will be a good soap until I'm able to use it...

So>>>my thoughts are: maybe this combination of vinegar and citric don't work in a high solid oil/butter soap, but are okay in a high olive oil soap. Or maybe it has to do with the high superfat I used in my coconut oil soap.

At this point I'm not sure what is the cause of the one batch turning out versus the other not...but I am super interested in this.

What you are not telling us is if you used the extra NaOH to react the vinegar and citric acid? This is a very necessary step. For your vinegar usage, you would multiply by 0.0357 and your citric acid you would use 0.624 to find out how much extra NaOH to use. Do not depend on Soap Maker Friend at this point to do the math for you. It has apparently been incorrect when doing the math for the CA.

I do not remember if I ever used CA and Vinegar together but will go back through my recipes and check.
ETA: no I never used CA and Vinegar together. By the time I started using Vinegar I had changed to Tetrasodium EDTA.

 

[Megan]

I did for each calculate the extra NaOH. I did use soapmaker friend but if the calculations were off, they would be for each equally as I used equal amounts of citric in each batch 2% in the same size batch.

I dissolved my citric acid in 50% water and added my vinegar. I then dissolved my lye and waited for it to clear. I waited for it to cool before using.

 

[cmzaha]

Apparently it is only the CA that is off. Did you deduct the vinegar from the required vinegar? The calculator is also doing it causing too much liquid, unless it has since been fixed after I posted the issue.

 

[Megan]

From the required liquid you mean? I selected the liquid discount option.

 

[Kcryss]

I recently discovered that using both vinegar and CA in the same recipe causes issues with cook times. I do however use HP so maybe with CP it's different.

The smf calculator is giving too much water for both vinegar and ca especially if you don't select the lye discount option. If selecting the lye discount option for both, the difference is not as bad and likely not make too much of a difference. The lye amount for CA usage is too low also.

Edit: Actually, if you use the full amount of liquid as vinegar, the water is not off, it's correct.

 

[penelopejane]

I have tried CA and vinegar extensively with 5% KOH and 100% NaOH and vinegar at different percentages. I always reduced the CA and vinegar using manual maths. Even with the exact same recipe I sometimes got a great soap and at others it was soft or motley or brown on the edges (possibly early stage DOS). All my soaps are high OO. The only thing that I didn't note was the level of trace I reached - which I think really effects the crumbliness of soap but vinegar and CA didn't result in crumbly soap.

I just could not get a consistent result with CA and vinegar. My family didn't like vinegar in soap (it gives a plasticy feel) and I really like CA in soap so I dropped the vinegar.

 

[cmzaha]

From the required liquid you mean? I selected the liquid discount option.

Soap Makers Friend has not been subtracting the vinegar amount even when you check the liquid discount option.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have tried CA and vinegar extensively with 5% KOH and 100% NaOH and vinegar at different percentages. I always reduced the CA and vinegar using manual maths. Even with the exact same recipe I sometimes got a great soap and at others it was soft or motley or brown on the edges (possibly early stage DOS). All my soaps are high OO. The only thing that I didn't note was the level of trace I reached - which I think really effects the crumbliness of soap but vinegar and CA didn't result in crumbly soap.

I just could not get a consistent result with CA and vinegar. My family didn't like vinegar in soap (it gives a plasticy feel) and I really like CA in soap so I dropped the vinegar.

Thanks for sharing this info. I use CA for my vegan soaps and will definitely avoid vinegar in those recipes. Would you be willing to say about more about the relationship you’ve observed between trace and crumbliness? I don’t get crumbly soap often, but I’ve seen “soft” crumbly enough now to think it’s happening when I have a very thin emulsion and slow saponification reaction. It does firm up eventually, but the texture of the soap usually does not end up as smooth as it does in situations where the batter wants to saponify more quickly due to mixing or the recipe.

 

[penelopejane]

Would you be willing to say about more about the relationship you’ve observed between trace and crumbliness? I don’t get crumbly soap often, but I’ve seen “soft” crumbly enough now to think it’s happening when I have a very thin emulsion and slow saponification reaction. It does firm up eventually, but the texture of the soap usually does not end up as smooth as it does in situations where the batter wants to saponify more quickly due to mixing or the recipe.

I have found that it isn't just at emulsion (no trace on top of the soap batter) but also a bit further into light trace that the soap seems to be crumbly.

I soap at 110*F (42*C). I heat my oils and I reheat my masterbatch lye by pouring the rest of the recipe water/liquid into it. I use 1% CA and seasalt in every batch. I use high OO in all my recipes. My soap is in a silicone mold and wooden box (even my individual molds) and then I put them in a polystyrene box and cover them. So I force gel even with milk soaps for which I use the split method. I've found that if I split off the batter at emulsion I have to make sure each part is at light/medium trace to ensure I don't get crumbly soap.
Light/medium is so subjective but if I pour at a point that the trace holds then it is safe.

I go a tiny bit further than thin to medium but I don't go as far as the medium/thick in this link:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/controlling-trace-in-cold-process-soapmaking/

I also think the hard white streaks you sometimes get in soap is an early stage crumble.

I've been reading quite a few posts lately about crumbly soap and I think there really is a correlation between trace and crumbly soap regardless of the recipe but it might be something else. I know you can avoid stearic spots (or greatly reduce them) by soaping soaping fairly cool but waiting a fair while for the soap to do it's thing in the jug before you pour it. Maybe it might be time as well. I rarely wait between mixing and pouring but I have a couple of complicated recipes that take a lot of fiddling between emulsion and pouring and I don't ever get crumbly with them but they've probably reached light/med trace by then.

What have you found to be true for your soaps?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have found that it isn't just at emulsion (no trace on top of the soap batter) but a bit further into light trace that the soap seems to be crumbly.
I soap at 110*F (42*C). I heat my oils and I reheat my masterbatch lye by pouring the rest of the recipe water/liquid into it. I use 1% CA and seasalt in every batch. My soap is in a silicone mold and wooden box (even my individual molds) and then I put them in a polystyrene box and cover them. So I force gel even with milk soaps for which I use the split method. I've found that if I split off the batter at emulsion I have to make sure each part is at medium trace to ensure I don't get crumbly soap.
Light/medium is so subjective and I might wait a bit between mixing and pouring but if I pour at a point that the trace holds then it is safe.

I've been reading quite a few posts lately about crumbly soap and I think there really is a correlation between trace and crumbly soap regardless of the recipe.

I can get a good looking soap texture when I start at emulsion rather than light trace (first point at which batter will make a lasting mark on the surface of the batter), but my batter needs to be warm, or I need to make sure it gets warm fairly quickly once it’s in the mold. I just recently started adding sugar on a regular basis, which seems to be helping.

 

[penelopejane]

So you are pouring at emulsion?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Well that doesn't correlate with my soap because I always soap warm and I had the occasional crumbly soap. I try to be more consistent with my trace now.

Soaping is so very variable. I suppose it could have something to do with the recipe but I don't want to go into that detail since I can control it in my soap without doing that.

I’m so glad that I’m past the stage of trying everything possible. I’m finally able to get a sense of how changing one thing at a time affects the behavior of my recipe and the outcome .

 

[penelopejane]

I’m so glad that I’m past the stage of trying everything possible. I’m finally able to get a sense of how changing one thing at a time affects the behavior of my recipe and the outcome .

You quoted me while I was still trying to formulate my answer!!
Do you pour at emulsion and get a good soap as long as it is warm?
You said "start at" and I wasn't sure what that meant.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

You quoted me while I was still trying to formulate my answer!!
Do you pour at emulsion and get a good soap as long as it is warm?
You said "start at" and I wasn't sure what that meant.

Yes, I mix to what I think is a stable emulsion (a little bit past the “no oil separation” stage) and record that as my “starting stage.” For the recent Ione swirl challenge, I mixed the base soaps to a light trace, but left the accent batter thin enough to pour easily in a stream from a paper cup. I noticed that the batches that cooled off the most while I was making them, due to having the most colors, most portioning and mixing of micas, non-accelerating fragrances, turned out ever so slightly grainier looking than the others I made even though they were all made from the same recipe and with otherwise similar methods. Conversely, two of the batches mixed to emulsion stayed warmer initially (fewer colors, less portioning and mixing) and then also accelerated a wee bit due to the FOs. They do not look grainy at all. I can’t recall how the fifth soap looks close up but will check it tomorrow. It was made with an intermediate number of colors and a non-accelerating fragrance.

 

[Megan]

Soap Makers Friend has not been subtracting the vinegar amount even when you check the liquid discount option.

It did for me?

 

[cmzaha]

It did for me?

Then it has been corrected. I just checked it and yes it did deduct the vinegar usage when the Liquid Discount box is on. It still helps to double-check all calculations.

For quite a while it did not work but was reported so I compliment the developers for fixing another issue. I will mention it will not change a pre-existing recipe where the Liquid Discount was not previously working.

 

[Megan]

I have tried CA and vinegar extensively with 5% KOH and 100% NaOH and vinegar at different percentages. I always reduced the CA and vinegar using manual maths. Even with the exact same recipe I sometimes got a great soap and at others it was soft or motley or brown on the edges (possibly early stage DOS). All my soaps are high OO. The only thing that I didn't note was the level of trace I reached - which I think really effects the crumbliness of soap but vinegar and CA didn't result in crumbly soap.

I just could not get a consistent result with CA and vinegar. My family didn't like vinegar in soap (it gives a plasticy feel) and I really like CA in soap so I dropped the vinegar.

I think this will probably be the direction I go in anyway. I need the CA more than the vinegar.


I have found I pretty much always have issues when I try to just go to emulsion. I'm pretty sure this is because my recipe doesn't really heat up at all. I need to force gel practically every time...
There are a lot of techniques that I feel need to be at emulsion to carry out. So it would be nice to be able to figure this out. I mostly soap around 90-100 degrees, and it might be as much as bumping that up 10-20 degrees, but that goes against what most people I've run into recommend...so I have avoided such.

 

[penelopejane]

I think this will probably be the direction I go in anyway. I need the CA more than the vinegar.


I have found I pretty much always have issues when I try to just go to emulsion. I'm pretty sure this is because my recipe doesn't really heat up at all. I need to force gel practically every time...
There are a lot of techniques that I feel need to be at emulsion to carry out. So it would be nice to be able to figure this out. I mostly soap around 90-100 degrees, and it might be as much as bumping that up 10-20 degrees, but that goes against what most people I've run into recommend...so I have avoided such.

Irish lass also soaps at 110*F.

 

[penelopejane]

Yes, I mix to what I think is a stable emulsion (a little bit past the “no oil separation” stage) and record that as my “starting stage.” For the recent Ione swirl challenge, I mixed the base soaps to a light trace, but left the accent batter thin enough to pour easily in a stream from a paper cup. I noticed that the batches that cooled off the most while I was making them, due to having the most colors, most portioning and mixing of micas, non-accelerating fragrances, turned out ever so slightly grainier looking than the others I made even though they were all made from the same recipe and with otherwise similar methods. Conversely, two of the batches mixed to emulsion stayed warmer initially (fewer colors, less portioning and mixing) and then also accelerated a wee bit due to the FOs. They do not look grainy at all. I can’t recall how the fifth soap looks close up but will check it tomorrow. It was made with an intermediate number of colors and a non-accelerating fragrance.

This is really interesting.
I’m wondering if my last crumbly soap cooled too much. I think I took a phone all in the middle of making it.

What temp do you start out at? what temp do you think is too low and the mix starts to get grainy?