very confused!

[goc253]

Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone could give me their thoughts on this recipe, and why it using it may be ending in disaster for me!

My recipe is:

298g coconut oil (hard)
255g shea butter
298g olive oil
227g water
119g sodium hydroxide
17g fragrance oil

I have made this twice now (with different fragrance oils in each batch), and both times it has gotten so thick I've had to really rush to get it into the moulds. I really wanted to split it in two and do a lovely swirl but I can hardly get the colour into it in time, let alone split it and swirl!

I've read in these forums that it is best to use a recipe with more liquid oils to avoid a fast trace (greased lightening trace in this case!), do you think the above recipe has too much butter and if so, could this be my problem? Or is it, as I suspect, just very bad luck with fragrance oils?

Thanks in advance, any help or recipe suggestions will me much appreciated!

oh, and both the oils and lye were at 100 F when I soaped.

 

[judymoody]

When I first looked at this I thought your proportion of saturated oils was pretty high and your water discount was pretty steep. I ran your numbers through soap calc and for the default 5% superfat and 38% water, it recommends 121 grams of lye and 323 grams of water. The amount of lye you're using is between 6-7% superfat which is just fine. However, the water discount coupled with high % of coconut and shea can speed trace.

At what temperature are you soaping? With that much shea and CO, you'd probably want to soap on the warmer side, say at 110. That way you will reduce risk of false trace.

You didn't say what fragrance you are using? That information would be helpful as certain categories of fragrance (like florals) are more prone to seizing than others. Your ratio, BTW, is only 2% of oil weights which is on the low side. .5 oz PPO is a little over 3% and many soapers use .7 to 1 oz PPO.

Have your soaps been coming out well other than thickening quickly initially? Do they unmold well and have a smooth even texture?

You might want to try a whisk instead of a stick blender if you want to slow things down.

Also increasing liquid oils like OO to 50% of your recipe will make it easier to have time for swirls.

HTH!

 

[goc253]

Hi Judy, thanks for your help.

I didn't realise I had that much of a water discount, I'm pretty new to soap making but I always run my numbers through soap calc first, wonder how I missed that?! I'm missing nearly 100g of water then, I can certainly see how that could make a difference.

I usually soap at 100F and the fragrances are all from a british company called Just A Soap. The first batch was bakewell tart (mmmmmmm It smells beautiful!), and the second was mango and passion fruit. I meant to use the fragrance at 2 % but I do realise I'm being a bit tight with it!

The first batch that went belly up was supposed to be cupcakes and I (stupidly) didn't have another mold ready, so I just had to shove it in to the cases and hope for the best. they seem ok but were only made last week so I haven't used them yet. Tonight's little master piece is in a juice carton setting up so that might come out a little better. It's looking like it might cut ok. fingers crossed

I have just found another recipe that looks promising,
500g olive oil
250g shea butter
250g coconut oil
380g water
149 sodium hydroxide

I think I've increased the water and the olive oil is 50% so I might have a bash at this and see what happens. Eeeeekk, I'm a bit nervous now!

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Soaplady22]

What Judy said.
A whisk has really helped me in keeping trace at bay while I get everything ready. I struggled with just the SB for the longest time - now I know better. I use high shea too, but not that high.

 

[fiddletree]

That recipe is very similar to one I've been having problems (of the same nature) with this week... the 'Ack! Soap on a stick' thread. I think my problem had to do with oils acting weird from a different supplier, but who really knows. There is some good advice on that thread regarding temps and such.

I've done the recipe you've posted a lot before, but with less of a water discount (33% lye conc or so). It usually behaves well, and it reaches trace within a minute or so.

 

[goc253]

Thankyou ladies, I feel like I'm wasting my precious shea butter so I'm going to try the second recipe I posted. It looks quite nice on paper and if it goes wrong I will still have enough ingredients left to try something else.

I have a feeling it may be the water, or lack of, that was causing me problems. I'm a chicken though and am too scared to try the original recipe with more water! Any quick thoughts on the second recipe before I go make a mess in the kitchen again?

 

[goc253]

Hahaha!! Soap gremlins - 0, Gina - 1.

well just to let you know, I've just made a 500g batch of the second recipe and it's turned out beautifully!! I'm so pleased! I'm assuming it was the water and high shea content, because I have used the mango and passion fruit fragrance again and I had bags of time

Thanks again everyone.

 

[carebear]

bravo!!! do we get pictures?

 

[goc253]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

these are made with the second recipe, i'm soooo pleased with them! The soap that i thought had gone horribly wrong is actually looking lovely now too, it gelled and looks so creamy. it was a dream to cut, can't wait to use it.

 

[trishwosere]

I can't get the piccies up hon, but I'm so glad it worked out for you 2nd time around...well done!

 

[Soaplady22]

Welcome to the obsession - it looks like you're properly hooked now!!

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Well done. I'll be interested to hear what you think of the difference between two recipes. :wink:

 

[Stinkydancer]

Thankyou ladies, I feel like I'm wasting my precious shea butter so I'm going to try the second recipe I posted. It looks quite nice on paper and if it goes wrong I will still have enough ingredients left to try something else.

I have a feeling it may be the water, or lack of, that was causing me problems. I'm a chicken though and am too scared to try the original recipe with more water! Any quick thoughts on the second recipe before I go make a mess in the kitchen again?

Why would you be chicken to use more water? I would say lack of water was causing your issue but then again you can never rule out a fragrance oil.

CP soap is about patience...while discounting your water will give you a harder bar faster- it still needs to be cured to reach it's full potential.

I soap at 36% Lye concentration- a lot of water for CP- I have hard soap in a couple of days if I gel- 5 days if I don't. I rarely have problems with those batches with fragrance, lye, or whatever.

I start discounting pretty deep and it seems like I run into problems alot.

Just my observations after too many batches.

 

[trishwosere]

Can everyone get these piccies to load?? because I can't and wondered if it's my browser :cry:

 

[goc253]

oh dear, i'm not very good at loading photos, try again!

Hope this works :\

Stinkydancer, I just meant that I don't think I could bear it if another batch turned out badly, so a completely new recipe seemed like my best bet.

Soaplady - YES YES YES!! I am definitely hooked, everyone's getting soaps and body cream for christmas so I can practice more!

Bubbles - I like the look of the gelled soap better, no pics though, sorry! I'm so inpatient, I just want to use both of them now to see which is best.

 

[Stinkydancer]

Ooooh Ok gotcha- been there it is frustrating.

Lovely Cupcakes!! They look amazing! I bet they smell great too.

 

[trishwosere]

Wowser, gorgeous cupcakes...scrumptious

 

[BlueValkyrie]

Those cupcakes look great

I've soaped the exact same recipe as the original one that you posted - it's the first one in the Smart Soapmaking book by Anne Watson. Mine turned out fine, and is one of my favourite soaps so far - very gentle and creamy. I had no issues at all with it, and I've heard the same from others who have the same book. That said, I was being much less ambitious than you (nervous newbie that I am) and didn't use any additives, colours or fragrances, and didn't gel, in case that's relevant.

Maybe oils? Maybe temps or FOs?

Maybe gremlins? :evil:

 

[goc253]

Thankyou everyone

Blue... when you made the recipe that went wrong for me, did you use the same amount of water as I did (227g) or the 323g that Judy suggested? I'd love to know if you used more water that me because I think that is why things went wrong. Although it could be temps like you say. I'd love to try it again because it looks just like you describe, mild, creamy, delicious!

I am quite new to this as well, i've made 5 batches so far and can't seem to stop! I'm so glad I found this forum, the people on here are so helpful and have a real wealth of knowledge. You lot are invaluable!

Happy soaping.

 

[BlueValkyrie]

Sorry for not getting to this sooner

I made it exactly as you stated (227g of water) - that is how it appears in Anne Watson's book. I did run it through soapcalc, and played with ratios etc until I could get it to come up with the water amount stated in the recipe, as I wanted to understand where the figures were coming from.

I worked it out as a SF of 7%, Lye concentration 34%, Water as % of oil weight 27%. As mentioned, I didn't use any FO - maybe it takes very little to throw this recipe over the edge and make it move too fast? I stick blended, and it didn't trace especially quickly, or anything unusual.

The recipe is recommended for beginners in the book - if you google "anne's shea butter supreme" you can find posts on this and other forums about people using it for their first batch successfully, so I'm surprised to hear that it can be so problematic.