The big O

[Tabitha]

Organic that is (snicker).

Who buys organic fruits & veggies here? I am switching my family over to organic fruits & veggies. I started the process 2 weeks ago & it has not dramatically inpacted my grocery bill. I am careful now not to let itsm in my crisper sit neglected though. They all get used up before they go bad. That probably helps to off set the cost. Before lots of veggies went bad, got thown out & then had to be replaced. Buying conventional fruits & veggies twice, cost more than buying organic once.

Does anyone have a realiable website comparing the nutritional value of conventional vs. organic?

I have seen low numbers like organic has 20% more vitamies & I have seen high numbers like 4X (400% more vitamines).

 

[IanT]

Hey tab!...ME! Me! me!!! ....thought this might help you save some cash...look up in your area "organic coop" in a google search, around me they have these places (orlandoorganics.com and others) who offer bags of produce of different sizes either delivered to your door each week or for pick up...each week is different and always includes the best organics...and its pretty cheap too! when i was doing it i got the large bag, it was $40 / week and i never ran out of veggies, then all i did was go to BJ's for my meat and fish and bread and such...youll save loooooads of cash that way!!

This is the best link ive found:

http://www.ioia.net/images/pdf/orgvalue.pdf

http://www.wkkf.org/DesktopModules/WKF. ... nguageID=0

http://mitchell.ucdavis.edu/Is%20Organic%20Better.pdf


http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news ... so?id=6312

http://lookwayup.com/free/organic.htm


hope those help! basically the theory in my opinion (and i grow veggies both soil and hydroponically organic)... is that commerical ag pumps up the plants with "steroids" aka Fertilizers, much like they do with beef, but just like beef the non-roided out food is better than the alternative. its kind of like when you go to the doc and they give you a prescription of meds that kills off ALL the bacteria in your system, as opposed to homeopathic cures where you get just enough of the medicine to kill or hinder the bad and promote the good...

in hydro and soil organics you can only use so much fertilizer because synthetic or not, too many nutrients (nitrogen, potassium, phosphosous) will 'burn' the plant and make it yellow and crispy. Organic ferts are more suddle and easily absorbed into the plant and since not synthetic they are 'quality' nutrition to the plant...the main thing that synthetics lack (but do try to re-create with little success) is the most important phytochemicals, bacteria, and micro/macro nutrients that exist in miniscule proportions in the natural ferts... they are the little building blocks that add up to the sturdiest structure.... without them assisting in the breakdown of the nutrients and such (like the bacteria in soil that help compost the dead plant/animal matter) they do not become available in a form the plant can access, so though they may infuse the enzyme chemically it cant be absorbed as well as if all the good bacteria and such were buffering them


now hows that for a n earful !?? i love science and plants have always fascinated me...farming is in my blood!!

 

[digit]

Organic that is (snicker).

You are so naughty.

Oh wait, ummmmmm I did have to look................ :shock:

Digit

 

[Tabitha]

Most of the television my husband & I watch is public television (yes, we are dorks).

I saw a show about 2 weeks ago where the man was explaining we would have to eat 4 apples grown in 2008 to get the nutrition of 1 apple grown in 1950.

On another show we saw about 3 weeks ago, it showed how corn was force grown & contains maybe 25% of the nutrition it should & has in the past. Farmers/scientist/etc have found ways to grown more corn in a smaller land space & quicker so they can turn it over quicker, which pushes prices down but also pushes down what the corn contains, whic at this point is almost nothing.

I got to thinking. Since my kids do not eat as well as they shoud (not enough fruits or veggies for my son & not enough protiens for my daughter the self proclaimed vegetarian) that I should make the food they do eat REALY count.

I will look into the co-ops you mentioned. Thanks!

 

[IanT]

no worries! check out orlandoorganics.com to get an idea too ....good stuff!!

 

[Tabitha]

(snickering at digit)

 

[Soapmaker Man]

The man's farm where I buy my goats milk is organic certified. He sells organic chickens, hogs, cattle, eggs, and goats milk. Tab, I wish he grew organic veggies to sell. I can tell you his chicken, eggs, and GM, which I drink some and want to start making my own yogurt with, is delicious! Amazing eating his chicken compared to one bought from a big box store. :wink: He is higher priced, but that goes without explanation.

Thanks for all the links, Ian!

Paul

 

[IanT]

no worries!

 

[Guest]

Soapmaker Man: What are the milk restrictions like in your state? Here we can't even give raw milk away (literally).

 

[Tabitha]

OK, so these people were sitting on the side of the road today selling CP soap, so we stopped & guess what they sell every saturday? ORGANIC veggies. How was that for timing?

It was in the next town over. They were having *trade days*. We went over for lunch & a little shopping.

Here is a little local artical on them: http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/homepage/local_story_018203205.html
I knew they were there & that they made soap, I just didn't *think* about the veggies.

 

[Lane]

The number ONE thing I miss about Iowa is Farmers Markets. I knew a lot of the farmers who sold fruits and veggies every week and I would trade soap and crafts. I must say.. after moving to such a huge city, I do not think I have consumed even half a pound of organic anything.

 

[IanT]

OOOhhh I love trading stuff especially organics!

 

[digit]

Here we can't even give raw milk away (literally).

It has been so long since I had raw milk I would probably hurl. Granpa would sit early in the morn, shaking a jar until there was a chunk of butter for breakfast. Best buttermilk for biscuits. We called them cat head biscuits. Pour on some cane syrup and it is a feast fit for a queen.

I got in trouble on more than one occasion for stealing the morning biscuits and slipping off to go fishing. My cousin and I would stay all day hoping our catch (or at least a few big bull frogs) would get us out of trouble. We youngins' fought over those biscuits, so sweet like cake.

I do miss the fresh veggies, even when we canned and put them up. Every night there was a pan of beans or peas to shelled and hulled or corn to be shucked. But don't ya hate that line blister on your thumb from butterbeans?

Some days I am ready to go back to the farm. Fresh peaches, huckleberries, bullus, plums, puts a whole new spin on "eating out". What you can't, like crabapples, make jelly out of them. Always biscuits under the dishtowel on the table, until a certain few of us passed by. :shock: Mmmmmmmmm

Digit *feeling nostalgic*

 

[Deda]

Does anyone belong to a Community Garden?
http://www.localharvest.org/csa/

There are links to CSA gardens all over the county. Where I live there are several organic options, and you can choose to buy as little as a 1/4 share at some. The rules are different at each farm, but mostly they are reasonable and fun, too. When my kiddos were little they loved it when it was our turn to work the garden.

It's a great way to eat organic and save some cash.

 

[gallerygirl]

I love this topic! I buy from our local farmer's market, when in season, but alas, when the season passes, I have to go to the bright lights of the big grocery stores. I do try to buy mostly organic and have found that although it is pricier, I am able to eke it out. I am also big on buying daily instead of weekly. We are in a community that has a large Amish population - so we get our eggs, meats and seasonal veggies from them. You are so right Paul, the difference in taste is amazing. We do have a farm co-op, but I missed the commitment deadline this year :cry: I know we have a organic food co-op, but haven't looked into that yet. k

 

[mcleodnaturals]

I am a conventional (meaning they shun organics!!) farmer's wife and I have to say that I have butted heads with my in-laws (and my hubby) many times because I too believe we should be striving to eat more organics, etc. Then my mother in law gave me an article out of a pork producer's magazine and it really opened my eyes. Some of you may jump down my throat for speaking out against organics (which I'm not strictly against because I still am afraid of chemicals and feeding them to my kids!)...but...please read some of these quotes because they definitely made me think twice:

"Without the higher food yields produced by plant breeding, chemical fertilizers, pesticides and confinement feeding, the world would already have destroyed virtually all of its forests to get today's food supply"

"Growing more food per acre leaves more land for nature and it leaves the most important land for nature"

"The world's best quality farmland never had much biodiversity. It had large numbers of a few species, such as the bison in America and the kangaroo in Australia...Without high yield farming, humanity's food needs would be pitted against the needs of wildlife. High yield farming allows us to feed both."

It also listed 6 myths about modern farming. The most shocking one to me was myth #4 "Organic farming is kinder to the environment":
"The first and foremost rule of organic farming is 'Thou shalt not use industrial fertilizer'" says Dennis Avery (Director of the Center for Global Food in Churchville, Virginia) "Vaclav Smil of the University of Manitoba says that means the world would need the manure from another FIVE to SEVEN BILLION cattle to make up for the 80 million tons of natural nitrogen we would no longer take from the air to create ammonia fertilizer. Each of those cattle would need at least 5 acres of forage per year. We'd have to starve half the people or clear all of the forest for low yield crops."

It also talks about buying local, which most people I think strive to do because they perceive it as kinder to the environment. Avery says that one example of when buying local takes more energy that importing is in the case of lamb production. He says that producing lamb in Britain uses more energy that raising lamb in New Zealand and then shipping it to Britain! Another point he makes is that although buying local produce is a good idea, it doesn't take into account "47 mothers driving individually into the countryside to bring home two pounds of tomatoes apiece".

"The Economist recently carried a major article on organic and locally-produced foods, and denounced both as frauds. The magazine noted that the Green Revolution had essentially tripled the crop yields on most of the world's good land. Reverting to organic, they said, would 'require several times as much land as is currently cultivated. There wouldn't be much room left for the rainforest'."

I know this isn't probably the viewpoint of most people on the forum and I have to say that until I read this article I wasn't really thinking of the bigger picture. Sure growing organic is better because of the lack of chemicals put into the final product but I have never considered the fact that organic crops generally have lower yields than conventional crops (generally!) and therefore the price is higher (supply and demand)...but because there is less food produced, more land needs to be cleared/altered to make way for more lower yield crops.

Just my two cents...and a little something to think about...
:wink:

 

[Tabitha]

For every side there is another side.

I have never considered the fact that organic crops generally have lower yields than conventional crops (generally!) and therefore the price is higher (supply and demand)...but because there is less food produced, more land needs to be cleared/altered to make way for more lower yield crops.

Organic crops do have a smaller yield,but if it is a more nutritious yield it balances out.

I am no farmer, but if farm O (organic) produces 10 ears of corn per acre, while farm C (conventional) produces 20 ears of corn per acre, which is better? It is my understanding you would have to eat 2 ears of corn grown on farm C to equal the nutrition of 1 ear of corn on farm O, so it is equal.

I am sure it's not equal but you see I am getting at.

For every report there is an equal & oposite report and I guess everyobe has to to decide for themselves what is best for themselves & their families.

 

[Guest]

You also have to consider where the pork producers magazine is coming from. Was there, by any chance, a NAIS ad in the magazine also? :wink: Everyone has an adenda.

By the way, we actually raise our pigs on an organic diet and they dress out with more actual meat than factory hogs. No hauling them around cross-sountry cuz the corn's cheaper in Indiana.

 

[mcleodnaturals]

I absolutely agree that there are two sides to every story!! I just thought some of those quotes were quite interesting (to me anyway... :wink: )

I recently read another article on feedlot raised beef in the US (it was in Mother Earth News) and I made my father in law read it and tell me what the differences are between our cows and those cattle. Turns out it is quite a bit. Feedlot cattle are fed a bizarre mixture of leftover anything, rotten everything mixed in with antibiotics to keep them healthy enough to last until slaughter time. It was really disgusting actually! And very inhumane!!!

We raise cattle, and although they aren't organic, we don't feed them the horrid mixture of crap that the feedlots do to fatten them up. We feed them hay (both baled and free range) and barley to fatten them for market. And the meat tastes WAAAAY better than anything you'd find in a supermarket.

I guess for me it's not important that everything be organic, but just that I buy as much sustainable and ethically produced products that I can.

Hope I didn't offend anyone!!



I was just trying to shine a little light on the other side... :wink:

 

[Tabitha]

OMG about the cows!

It is just that sort of thing that makes me a vegetarian! If everyone knew what went on in the standard factory farms, there is no telling what changes would occur.

...ethically produced ...

This is important to me too. I buy either local free range eggs or organic free range from the grocers. I wish I could buy milk local.