sponification

[snpisonero]

I am having difficulty verifying something I read. Any advice would be appreciated.

I read a soap chemistry article that stated saturated fats saponify quicker than unsaturated. If this is true, it would not make sense to superfat with coconut oil, if there are unsaturated oils in my recipe.

If oils saponify at different rates, I wonder if there is some kind of chart that would indicate this.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just to confirm - when you say 'superfat with coconut oil', do you mean adding it to hp after the saponification has finished?

 

[snpisonero]

saponification

Whoops on the misspell.

I am speaking of cold process. I typically use about 23% coconut oil, 23% tallow, 23% olive oil, 23% avocado oil and 8% castor oil. I super fat my soap at the same %'s.

If saturated fat's saponify first, then the tallow and coconut oil in my superfat will saponinify and only the unsaturated oils will be left over.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If you're doing cp, your superfat is a mix of all of those oils. Adding in oils at trace in cp does not mean it'll be a superfat.

Think of it this way - saponification is a 24 hour process. Trace might take 30 mins from the moment you add lye to oils. So anything added at trace is out of the process for 0.5/24th of the time, or 1/48th. Dr Kevin Dunn also did lab experiments to see if cp trace 'superfats' were actually superfats - he concluded that they were not in any way different than if they were added at the start with the rest of the oils.

Now, as you point out, lye will react with some oils faster than others, so the superfat in cp will be a mix of all oils, but should be more of those slow saponifying oils left over

 

[snpisonero]

saponification

Thank you for the replies.

The variation at which lye reacts to different oils is what interests me. Do you happen to know if the lye reacts to saturated fats prior to unsaturated?


Thanks.

 

[Susie]

If you will tell us why you need to know that, you may get an answer to that rather than a chart. Although some of our scientists may just have a chart.

But you can Google it if you like. If such a chart exists, it is almost certainly out on the internet.

 

[Obsidian]

I have seen a web site with the different saponification rates of oils before and have wondered if the slower to saponify oils could effectively be used as SF in CP. I'll see if I can find the page.

 

[snpisonero]

Thanks everyone.

The reason why I ask is:

When I make this recipe of soap, I am trying to accomplish two things. First I want only a certain percentage of tallow and coconut oil in my soap.

Second I want both tallow and coconut oil in my superfat. I superfat at 10% and half of the desired superfat is coconut and tallow.

If the saturated oils saponify quicker than unsaturated, then I will end up with higher than desired levels of saponified tallow and coconut oil in my soap and none in my superfat. This creates a completely different bar of soap.

Thank you

 

[Obsidian]

Have you tried HP? You can save out the tallow/coconut you want for SF and add it after the cook. I can't find the web page with sap times but I'll keep looking.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Hp would be the way to achieve your aim. Adding at trace in cp just will not work

 

[shunt2011]

I'm with the rest. You can't guarantee which oils will be your superfat in CP. The lye monster takes what it wants. HP may be your best option to choose your SF oils.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, the rate of saponification does vary with the type of fat, and yes the saturated fats tend to saponify easier than the unsaturated fats. But even if you knew the reaction rate for each fat precisely, you still would not be able to accurately predict the specific fats left over after saponification is done. The superfat composition will depend on the amount of each fat used, the method of saponification, the temperature of the soap batter, etc.

It's like the fats and lye are having a big party with more fats (girls) than lye (guys) in the house. The guys at the party (the lye molecules) prefer blondes (coconut oil), but there are lots of pretty brunettes and redheads on the dance floor to mix with. These darker haired girls (olive oil, for example) dilute the concentration of blonds. This means the lye guys will find it harder to pair up with a girl with the "right" hair color and easier to pair up with a girl of another hair color (olive oil reacting with lye rather than coconut oil reacting w lye).

Even though some of the lye guys are eventually going to pair up with the blonds they prefer, many will pair up with the brunettes and redheads instead. At the end of the party, the lye guys will have hooked up with a fair number of the darker haired gals by the end of the party. It is likely that at least some girls of each hair color will remain without a partner. Given that this interaction is all about chemistry and probability, it's difficult to predict how many blonds, brunettes, and redheads will be left over.

There's just no way one could create a simple table to answer this question. HP is absolutely the way you should go if you want rigid control of the superfat composition.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

So if I prefer blondes but have redheads all around me (heaven!) my preference doesn't matter as I will also hook up with what is there - it's only when there is a blonde in the group of redheads that I would go blonde not ginger.

Love this analogy, apart from the fact that in soaping, it's the women (oils) who are more willing or less willing to hook up with the chaps (lye) - but saying that if a blonde was stood there with a red head, the blonde would throw herself before the redhead reacts at the chap may well ruffle feathers amoungst the lighter haired ladies here

 

[jules92207]

Dee Anna, I say it again, I just love your responses.

 

[DeeAnna]

And I can always count on The Gent to take my analogy to the hilarious but logical extreme!

 

[IrishLass]

Beautiful analogy, DeeAnna! I need to put a link to that post in my soaping files.

And thank you Gent, for giving me my first hearty giggle of the day. lol


IrishLass

 

[snpisonero]

Awesome analogy DeeAnna and I am with the gentleman on redheads!

I have considered HP, but a few things turn me off. First is the look of HP soap, I prefer the smoother look of CP. Second is the time HP takes. I am thinking I will just focus more on the avocado, castor and olive for superfatting.

I really appreciate the insight everyone. THANK YOU!

 

[DeeAnna]

Soaping ... and women ... are all about compromise. :shifty:

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Soaping ... and women ... are all about compromise. :shifty:

And I love how they feel on my skin?

To the op, again I have to say that your cp superfat will be a mix of all of your oils. More of it might be one type than another, but the rates used will have a huge impact.

If you had a mix of 25% of 4 oils, then maybe the superfat would be more of one type than another. But not all of it by any means.

You will need hp if you want to control your superfat.

 

[snpisonero]

Thanks all!!