Soap Percentage Inquiry

[DeeAnna]

I'm late to the party, but I think Irish Lass' advice is spot on about why this soap is unusually soft. Soaps that do not get fairly warm during saponification will often stay softer for a few days.

That threw me the first few times it happened to me -- I used a recipe I was familiar with and was expecting a firm soap with a nice waxy feel, but instead the soap was soft with a somewhat crumbly texture, much like feta cheese. I finally traced it to the soap remaining cooler than usual during saponification.

Two solutions to this issue (it's hard to call it a "problem" really!) -- The first is simple patience. Give the soap time to firm up -- a few days or so -- and then try to unmold and cut it.

The second solution is to preheat the oven to somewhere around 150 deg F (65 C), put the soap in its mold into the preheated oven. Even if you've already cut it into bars, just put the bars back in the mold and pretend the soap is all in one loaf. Let the soap warm for, oh, maybe an hour. Take it out and see if it has firmed up. If it is still too soft, put back in the oven for another 1/2 hour or so. If still overly soft, I'd turn the oven off and just leave the soap in the oven to slowly cool down.

Whether you want to tweak your recipe is a second issue, in my opinion. For my skin, there's too much coconut oil, but for other people's skin the 50% CO might be fine.

Welcome Momosoaps! :wave:

If you ask me, your recipe looks like it will make a good and hard soap with all that coconut oil in there. The reason why it is so soft is because it most likely did not go through the gel stage. Just give it a few days and it will harden up quite nicely. Typically, soaps that don't go through gel can be as soft as cream cheese at first, even soaps with a lot of hard butters/fats in them. There's nothing wrong with it, though- it's just the nature of things when it comes to not gelling.

IrishLass

 

[Momosoaps]

30% shea is expensive and will cut the bubbles. It might make a lovely bar though.

This recipe:
30% Palm oil
30% Olive Oil
30% Coconut Oil
10% Castor

Makes a really hard bar that fills your criteria (bubbly long lasting etc).
The problem is that soap is very dependent on what YOUR skin likes.
My skin might like one recipe while someone else's skin will like something else. That is why someone will say no more than 10% CO and others will say only use lard. Some people love Goats milk, others hate it.

You really have to try a recipe and tweek it to see what you like, as frustrating as that is.

To tweek the above 30/30/30/10 recipe I would personally increase the OO, drop the Coconut oil (which I am allergic too and dries my skin) to 10% max and drop the Castor to 5% and replace the palm oil (which I am allergic to and I am fundamentally opposed to) with Avocado, Almond, Macadamia, Shea butter or mango butter.

But these suggestions might not suit you. I have friends who only want the 30/30/30/10 recipe because it cleans well and they have not problem with palm or coconut.

All of the above suggestions will fulfil the requirement to add colour. HP is limited in that regard and the hardness gained in the first day with HP is soon matched by any CP bar. Both have to cure for 6 weeks but will be nicer given a longer cure. CP is an easy process and CP soaps look and feel beautiful as well, although there are people out there who like the look of HP bars. Just about everything in soap making is subjective. :mrgreen:

Hi Everyone!

I am pleased to announce that the soaps have hardened within a reasonable amount. I cut them 5 days ago. I trialed one of the soaps and have left my hands feeling unbelievably soft and conditioned!

Patience was key!

I'v provided some photos too

 

[penelopejane]

Hi Everyone!

I am pleased to announce that the soaps have hardened within a reasonable amount. I cut them 5 days ago. I trialed one of the soaps and have left my hands feeling unbelievably soft and conditioned!

Patience was key!

Congratulations. Looks very nice.

 

[Momosoaps]

Congratulations. Looks very nice.

Thank you dear <3

Glad I have a wise localized source of information, do you have any advise on buying soap cutters in Australia?

Regards, Momo

 

[penelopejane]

Thank you dear <3

Glad I have a wise localized source of information, do you have any advise on buying soap cutters in Australia?

Regards, Momo

No I haven't been able to find one here.
I got a Bud's workshop one on etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/budhaffner

Timber, beautifully made.
It takes a while to learn to use a wire cutter and the finish isn't as good as a paint scraper and mitre box. But they are quick, regular cuts and I wouldn't be without one and I don't even sell!

 

[Momosoaps]

If it were me, I would do 55% Olive, 25% Sunflower, 15% Coconut and 5% Castor. I would also add 2% to 3% of the weight of the oils in salt to increase the hardness to make unmolding easier (you can dissolve that in your water before you add the NaOH). I would also add 1% - 2% weight of oils in sugar to increase the bubbles (if you like bubbles; this recipe would make for a creamier lather than a bubblier lather). You can dissolve the sugar in the water before you add the NaOH.

The issue with that much olive oil (soft oils in general, I guess) is the cure time. It takes much longer for soft oils to cure than it does for hard oils. You can use this bar of soap in the normal 4-6 week cure time that everyone recommends; however, it will not be a great bar of soap. I wouldn't think to use it for at least six months. I would consider it a "Bastille" and let it sit for a year before calling it cured. (I don't know the longevity of Sunflower oil and how prone to DOS [dreaded orange spots or rancidity] it is. I don't think that is one that I have used yet. I'd have to check my list of soaps.)

One other thing, using EVOO in soap, in my opinion, is a waste of a good olive oil. It does not bring any benefit to the soap that you can't get from second or subsequent pressings of the olives or pomace olive oil. (Although, in modern commercial production, I doubt they do multiple pressings any more.)

Thank you for your reply Teresa

I have restructured the plan for the next batch which will commence this weekend and consists of the following

45% Olive
25% Coconut
10% Castor
10% Sunflower
10% Teatree Fragrance

Superfatted at 6% or 7%

Cold Process Oven Process is the method for this next batch

I will proceed as per normal cold process then stick the mould in the oven at 50 Degree Celcius (122 F) and see how it progresses over the next half hour to speed up the Saponification process - let me know what you think of my plan, I'm eager to hear what you have to say

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The tea tree eo or fo shouldn't be counted as an oil in that 100% - or have I miscalculated?

Your 'normal' oils should be 100%, and your scents separate.

 

[Momosoaps]

The tea tree eo or fo shouldn't be counted as an oil in that 100% - or have I miscalculated?

Your 'normal' oils should be 100%, and your scents separate.

Thanks! In that case it would be

50 olive
30 Coconut
10 Sun
10 Castor

Cold Process Oven Process

What is your opinion on this recipe?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Personally I think that the castor is too high in general, especially for a soft oil soap. I prefer recipes generally with some hard oils in there, ideally lard, but if you want a soft-oil recipe then certainly lower the castor or it could be so soft and gooey. It will need a good 3 month cure anyway. The co is fine in this case as you are using a high SF.

I don't know what the tea tree limit would be - is 10% going to be safe for skin?

 

[Momosoaps]

Personally I think that the castor is too high in general, especially for a soft oil soap. I prefer recipes generally with some hard oils in there, ideally lard, but if you want a soft-oil recipe then certainly lower the castor or it could be so soft and gooey. It will need a good 3 month cure anyway. The co is fine in this case as you are using a high SF.

I don't know what the tea tree limit would be - is 10% going to be safe for skin?

Hmm, the soap I pictured at the start of this post had 10% castor, was done completely cold process and the soap was hard after 1 week cure and is of acceptable hardness now.

Happy to replace the Olive oil with Palm Oil. Tho thats currently being shipped to my address presently.

Regards, Momo

 

[Susie]

That's too much coconut oil for me, I prefer no more than 15%.

I suggest you wait until your batch cures before making another. I know it is difficult to wait, but then you will know if you like that recipe or not. After that, come let us know.

 

[Momosoaps]

That's too much coconut oil for me, I prefer no more than 15%.

I suggest you wait until your batch cures before making another. I know it is difficult to wait, but then you will know if you like that recipe or not. After that, come let us know.

Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?

Regards, momo

 

[shunt2011]

Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?

Regards, momo

Not Susie, but yes, the soap will change for the better at 4 weeks. There is so much more to curing then the evaporation of water. It changes it's structure. More bubbly, creamy, longer lasting, milder.

I suggest trying it each week and seeing the change for yourself.

 

[TeresaT]

Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?

Regards, momo

Not Susie, but yes, the soap will change for the better at 4 weeks. There is so much more to curing then the evaporation of water. It changes it's structure. More bubbly, creamy, longer lasting, milder.

I suggest trying it each week and seeing the change for yourself.

Yes. I double what shunt says. I'm "sold" on a long cure, myself. I prefer my soaps to cure a minimum of three months. They are perfectly good soaps at six weeks and my friends like them. I gift them at that cure time. However, I now have some older soaps to gift alongside of the newer soaps for comparative purposes. So far everyone has agreed that the older soaps were better. However, they didn't know why soap A was nicer than soap B. They thought it was a different oil combination. It's just the curing/aging process that soap goes through.

 

[dibbles]

I agree with everyone else that after a 4-6 week cure your soap will have changed and you will have a better idea of how you like your recipe. But, I also understand that you are fairly new to soap making and the desire to just make soap! Coconut oil doesn't bother me, and I will use it up to 25%. I usually stay around 20%. Since you seem to have no problems with high coconut oil, now have palm oil and want to make a soap that hardens faster for unmolding purposes, this is what I would do:

25% coconut
30% palm
30% olive oil
10% sunflower oil
5% castor

Dissolve salt and sugar in your lye water as others have suggested. Make small batches until you can test your soaps after a full cure. Also, keep in mind that higher amounts of coconut may not bother your skin, but if you are giving it away, it may be a problem for others in higher percentages. You could also try 15% coconut, and add 5% each to the palm and olive oil to compare.

 

[Momosoaps]

I agree with everyone else that after a 4-6 week cure your soap will have changed and you will have a better idea of how you like your recipe. But, I also understand that you are fairly new to soap making and the desire to just make soap! Coconut oil doesn't bother me, and I will use it up to 25%. I usually stay around 20%. Since you seem to have no problems with high coconut oil, now have palm oil and want to make a soap that hardens faster for unmolding purposes, this is what I would do:

25% coconut
30% palm
30% olive oil
10% sunflower oil
5% castor

Dissolve salt and sugar in your lye water as others have suggested. Make small batches until you can test your soaps after a full cure. Also, keep in mind that higher amounts of coconut may not bother your skin, but if you are giving it away, it may be a problem for others in higher percentages. You could also try 15% coconut, and add 5% each to the palm and olive oil to compare.

I'm more aligned with your recipe. I think I will try that one for sure. Just need to wait on the next shipment of Palm to come in.

While I do understand that a >4wk cure is recommended for cold process, It is inconvenient for me to wait that long. Which is why I have shifted my interest to CPOP. If I CPOP this batch, what cure times am I looking at?

Regards, Momo

 

[dibbles]

CPOP requires the same cure time. As does hot process. There really is no way around it.

 

[Momosoaps]

CPOP requires the same cure time. As does hot process. There really is no way around it.

Everywhere I have read seems to appose that

An example is

Soaps made using the cold process method take about three to four weeks to cure. This of course depends on where you live. If you live in a region where the humidity is very low such as Colorado it could take your soaps one to two weeks to cure. If the soaps were made using the hot process method one week of cure time is sufficient.

http://handmadesoapcoach.com/the-difference-between-hot-process-and-cold-process-soaps/

Thoughts?

 

[dibbles]

Everywhere I have read seems to appose that

An example is

Soaps made using the cold process method take about three to four weeks to cure. This of course depends on where you live. If you live in a region where the humidity is very low such as Colorado it could take your soaps one to two weeks to cure. If the soaps were made using the hot process method one week of cure time is sufficient.

http://handmadesoapcoach.com/the-difference-between-hot-process-and-cold-process-soaps/

Thoughts?

First, do not confuse CPOP with hot process. I don't do hot process soap, but I do know that can be done in the oven. CPOP is cold process soap which is put into a low-temp oven to encourage gel.

As to the issue of cure time, there are all kinds of things that are said on blogs, youtube, etc. There is good advice and bad advice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I guess. What I know is - I trust the information that is given on this forum, and when I have a question about something, this is where I look. There are many members with years of experience and an incredible base of knowledge. DeeAnna is one of those members who is willing to share what she knows from her chemistry background. Read this thread, particularly DeeAnna's posts #1, #11 and #15.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831&highlight=cure+time

Another thing I know is that I have seen, more times than I can count, people post that they have found their soaps to be so much better when given a proper cure time. I have never seen a post that said their soap was as good 2 days after it was made as it was after a 4 week cure. My own experience today: I used a soap that was 1 year old. It was not bad soap when first made, and a very nice to use soap at 4 weeks. At one year, it is wonderful. I don't have many soaps that are this old. They are usually used or given away before a year. But I keep a bar from each batch for a year.

Your soap will be safe to use after it has saponified and you have checked to make sure it doesn't zap. (This thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690) But, it won't be as good as it will be when it is given the time it needs. A fully cured bar of soap will be milder, lather better, and last longer.

I wonder about two things. When searching the internet for information, have you thought of also searching this forum when you have a question about something? If your soap doesn't zap, go ahead and use it. But assuming you will have made a few batches in the next four weeks, you will always have properly cured soap once that first batch is used up. So why do you think you won't ever be able to wait 4 weeks?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You will be looking at a cure time that works for you.

Sounds a little but unhelpful? Maybe. But naysaying people here based on some of the terrible misinformation from mommy bloggers and so on is not a great way to endear yourself to members.

A lot of people get confused about cure and saponification. Think of it this way:

There is a point when a soap is unsafe, then safe, finally ready for use.

The first two are easy - when it zaps (still saponifying) it is not safe. When the saponification is finished, it is safe.

Ready to use then depends on you. With 100% olive soaps, some people wait a year. Some 6 months and others much less. For each one, they need that cure time to get to the point where they consider the soap ready to use.

For me, I don't consider hp soap ready to use before a 4 week cure. It CAN be used before, as can cp (including cpop) soap, but safe is not ready.