Salt, Sugar, Stearic Acid and ACV

[Kcryss]

I've been watching a lot of video's lately hoping to learn what I might be doing wrong etc.

I've been watching Valerie Mosher a lot and noticed that she adds sugar and salt to the lye water at the beginning of her batch, then adds sugar, maple syrup and ACV at the end after the cook.

Why does she do both with the sugar and why include both sugar and maple syrup?

Why is she adding ACV after the cook? It is my understanding that it would potentially lower the pH, but if she adds too much wouldn't that cause it to go below the pH of soap and stop being soap at all?

Also, I've noticed on a few recipes that she is adding stearic acid. Is this due to the oils she is using in that particular recipe to increase hardness or something else?

Thanks for any clarification on these methods.

One last thought. She also uses sodium lactate at the end of the cook as well as yogurt. I know the yogurt is to help with fluidity, is sodium lactate doing the same thing?

 

[Obsidian]

There is no reason to add acv after cook. She probably wrongly believes its lowering the PH which it isn't.

Not sure why she would add sugars after cook either. Adding salt to the lye water helps harden the soap, sugar helps boost lather.

I'd guess the stearic is for hardening a soft recipe.

I've never watched this youtuber but maybe you should find one who understands soap chemistry a bit better.
Soaping101 is really good, so is Ariane Arsenault

 

[Kcryss]

Thanks Obsidian!
I looked for a few hours yesterday on previous posts trying to figure out the purpose of adding sugar before and after the cook and found nothing. Everyone on here is doing it with the lye water.

I was actually watching hers because I thought she was supposed to be one of the better youtube soapers. haha, guess I now know better!

 

[AliOop]

Any form of sugar can help with more, or more stable lather. Added post-cook, it does add fluidity for an HP batter bc sugar becomes a liquid when heated. People may choose specific sugars for scent, label appeal, and coloring (brown to tan). For instance, I love the lightly sweet scent from molasses in soap. It does turn the soap brown, so I tend to use that as my sugar choice when making soap with neem oil. Because neem stinks and and is also brown, molasses pairs well with it for me. Someone else might choose honey for the same reasons. Sugar also heats up the batter, so learn about the affects of heat (which can include acceleration) on soap batter. This can be an advantage in some processes (HTHP) and not in others (CP when wanting a slow-moving batter).

Most forms of salt, including sodium lactate (and excluding Epsom salts and Dead Sea salt, which are no-gos for soap) will increase the hardness or the bar and assist with unmolding. SL also increases fluidity of the batter, whereas adding dry salt in significant quantities makes the batter stiffer. Too much SL makes for crumbly bars. Also, salt can kill lather to some extent. Hence the reason many folks use a very high quantity of CO (high in bubbles) when making salt bars.

ACV is interesting in soap. The effects can depend on when it is added (pre- or post-cook in HP, for instance). Any liquid added post-cook does add fluidity, but there is limit to what can be achieved there without negatively affecting the final soap. People don’t always agree about the effects or benefits of vinegar. She may be adding it for fluidity or label appeal. Check out some of the other posts on vinegar to get more info about it. I personally use it as a water replacement in some cases where a chelator is needed to combat soap scum from hard water, or just to get a softer feel to the lather. I don’t know that it would have the same effect post-cook, but I havent tried it. Again, not everyone agrees about that, just like some people don’t notice any benefit to adding silk.

Keep up the good work with studying and learning. UltimateHPSoap has a great e-book that covers a lot of the science regarding how and why to use certain additives pre- and post-cook in HP.

 

[Kcryss]

Thanks AliOop!

I've really been working hard on trying to come up with a basic recipe that works well for me which is why all the questions and youtube viewing. I've made 5 batches so far and (I believe) the following to be accurate.
So far, I've found that using Citric Acid, salt (1 tsp ppo), and sugar (1tbs ppo) added to the liquid and thoroughly dissolved before adding lye will:
1. help with soap scum in hard water (citric acid) (I use the soapmakersfriend calc for the citric/lye calculation)
2. help to harden the bar (salt)
3. help with lather (sugar)

Using RBO or EDTA helps to curb the possibility of DOS.

Adding the following at the end of cook:
1 tbs yogurt ppo - helps fluidity
1% sodium lactate added after cook also helps with lather, fluidity, and hardness (is this correct?)

And another question
Liquids added after cook should be discounted with the exception of sodium lactate? Discounted meaning that much less water added to for the lye liquid. Correct?

Thanks again for all the help! Very much appreciated!

 

[AliOop]

Upfront disclaimer: this is JMO, YMMV.

1. I think you meant ROE (not RBO) to combat DOS? FWIW, I've never used ROE or EDTA to combat DOS, because I have no problem with it. Unless you are using a lot of soft oils, live in a very humid environment, or have some other specific reason (such as actually experiencing DOS that can't be traced to contact with metal, excess sunlight, etc.) I wouldn't bother with/spend money on either of those ingredients for that purpose. I'd personally try doing without first, and then adding it later if needed.

2. You already have citric acid for combating scum, so no need to add EDTA for that purpose. EDTA is considered less "natural" (some say carcinogenic); using it will eliminate some of your potential customer base who object to those kinds of additives. So personally, I wouldn't use it unless you find that citric acid isn't doing the anti-scum job for you, OR you really need it to prevent a significant threat of DOS.

3. You should not need to use salt and SL in the same batch. Both will harden the bar, so pick the one that gives you the most benefits for the recipe and process being used. Sounds like that would be SL in your case, since you want/need the additional things that SL brings to the table which salt does not. Some people choose salt bc it is cheap and doesn't have to be ordered, and they find other ways to obtain the additional benefits of SL. It is personal preference as to which one to use, but using both is duplicative, IMO. Maybe another soaper will chime in about that.

4. Depending on the water percentage in the recipe, you may or may not need to discount the post-cook liquids used; if they are significant amounts, then it is more likely. However, many soapers don't bother with discounting the SL, the yogurt, post-cook sugar, or the T of sugar water that may be used to dissolve colorants.

5. One thing to keep in mind if you are planning to sell eventually, or even as a hobby soaper, is that you really need to figure out how to minimize costs and limit the number of ingredients to be ordered, stored, and tracked.

Like baking and cooking, soapmaking is science, but there is room for experimentation and creativity. You may have some batches that defy conventional soaping wisdom, and others that are flops. All part of the fun.

 

[Kcryss]

1. haha! Yes, I did mean ROE. I read a post yesterday that Zany was saying she always uses ROE + Vitamin E in her soaps and has not had a problem with DOS. I've only made 5 batches of soap so haven't experienced it yet.

2. Thanks for the clarification. I will stick with the citric acid solution.

3. Thanks! I will try without SL and then with and see what works best. I ordered it a couple of weeks ago and it hasn't gotten here yet so haven't actually been able to try the SL.

4. I still haven't figured out what is best for hot process. I have generally set it to 2.6 or 2.7:1. But I'm still not sure if that's what I should be using or if it should be higher or lower.

5. I'm all for minimizing costs and limiting the number of ingredients I have to order online!

I really appreciate all the info.
I love experimenting! Maybe that's why I have loved doing this so much!

 

[cmzaha]

Vinegar does not act as a chelator, it forms Sodium Acetate when reacted with NaOH or KOH forming a salt, lending to a harder soap. It will not lower the ph of soap but will up the superfat if the proper amount of extra lye is not added, multiply your amount of vinegar by 0.0357 and add in this much extra lye to react the vinegar, if using commercial 5% vinegar, otherwise you will be leaving additional oils unsaponified. Vinegar is a less expensive way to harden soap lessens the need to order SL.


I will disagree with losing customers using EDTA as a chelator, I use EDTA and Sodium Gluconate and have yet to lose a customer, but I do have customers comment that my soaps do not leave as much scum as other handmade soaps they have tried and rinse off cleaner.

 

[Kcryss]

Vinegar does not act as a chelator, it forms Sodium Acetate when reacted with NaOH or KOH forming a salt, lending to a harder soap. It will not lower the ph of soap but will up the superfat if the proper amount of extra lye is not added, multiply your amount of vinegar by 0.0357 and add in this much extra lye to react the vinegar, if using commercial 5% vinegar, otherwise you will be leaving additional oils unsaponified. Vinegar is a less expensive way to harden soap lessens the need to order SL.

Yeah, I've seen where people are using vinegar before the cook instead of citric acid or SL, but she's actually adding it at the end of the cook.

 

[cmzaha]

Does not matter when you add the vinegar, it will not lower the ph of your soap.

 

[AliOop]

Vinegar does not act as a chelator, it forms Sodium Acetate when reacted with NaOH or KOH forming a salt, lending to a harder soap. It will not lower the ph of soap but will up the superfat if the proper amount of extra lye is not added, multiply your amount of vinegar by 0.0357 and add in this much extra lye to react the vinegar, if using commercial 5% vinegar, otherwise you will be leaving additional oils unsaponified. Vinegar is a less expensive way to harden soap lessens the need to order SL.


I will disagree with losing customers using EDTA as a chelator, I use EDTA and Sodium Gluconate and have yet to lose a customer, but I do have customers comment that my soaps do not leave as much scum as other handmade soaps they have tried and rinse off cleaner.

RE: Vinegar. Interesting... not sure where I'd heard that it sodium acetate had a chelating effect, but it's always good to learn more about the science and not the urban legends. I do like the softer lather feel of a soap made with vinegar as the water replacer. In the video where @Kcryss saw the soaper adding post-cook vinegar to the HP batter, at that point in the process there should be no lye with which the vinegar could react. She must be adding it for fluidity, or else for label appeal. Hopefully she's smart enough to know that she can't lower the pH of her soap!

RE: EDTA. Many of my friends are "crunchy" and would never use anything with EDTA. Some of them are even suspicious of citric acid, but are more accepting of that as the lesser evil when it comes to avoiding soap scum. Personally, I use CA for other things, thus I already have it around, and thus it's what I use, rather than ordering EDTA as yet another ingredient for which I need to make room on the shelves. I'm really trying hard to buy only the ingredients I really need in order to make soap I really like. And for me, CA does the trick. If it quits working, or if a friend asks for a soap with more scum-fighting power, EDTA may need to join the arsenal. I'm not opposed to it myself, but just don't find myself in need of it at this time.

@Kcryss, I would recommend that you make a few batches that you can compare to one another. This one with salt and sugar, that one with SL and sugar. This one with vinegar, that one with water. Let them cure, and see which you like better. If you start creating a recipe with a whole bunch of ingredients right off the bat, how will you know which ingredients were really necessary to create the soap that you really like? What if you could make a bar with only half of those ingredients, and still like it just as much? It does take time and some money to make batches and let them cure. But it will save time and money in the long run once you know how to create the soap that you like, with no unnecessary additives.

 

[cmzaha]

RE: Vinegar. Interesting... not sure where I'd heard that it sodium acetate had a chelating effect, but it's always good to learn more about the science and not the urban legends. I do like the softer lather feel of a soap made with vinegar as the water replacer. In the video where @Kcryss saw the soaper adding post-cook vinegar to the HP batter, at that point in the process there should be no lye with which the vinegar could react. She must be adding it for fluidity, or else for label appeal. Hopefully she's smart enough to know that she can't lower the pH of her soap!

RE: EDTA. Many of my friends are "crunchy" and would never use anything with EDTA. Some of them are even suspicious of citric acid, but are more accepting of that as the lesser evil when it comes to avoiding soap scum. Personally, I use CA for other things, thus I already have it around, and thus it's what I use, rather than ordering EDTA as yet another ingredient for which I need to make room on the shelves. I'm really trying hard to buy only the ingredients I really need in order to make soap I really like. And for me, CA does the trick. If it quits working, or if a friend asks for a soap with more scum-fighting power, EDTA may need to join the arsenal. I'm not opposed to it myself, but just don't find myself in need of it at this time.

@Kcryss, I would recommend that you make a few batches that you can compare to one another. This one with salt and sugar, that one with SL and sugar. This one with vinegar, that one with water. Let them cure, and see which you like better. If you start creating a recipe with a whole bunch of ingredients right off the bat, how will you know which ingredients were really necessary to create the soap that you really like? What if you could make a bar with only half of those ingredients, and still like it just as much? It does take time and some money to make batches and let them cure. But it will save time and money in the long run once you know how to create the soap that you like, with no unnecessary additives.

You might want to look into Sodium Gluconate instead of EDTA

 

[Dawni]

Yogurt works much better than sodium lactate, for fluidity, in my opinion. I started using both, then eventually just yogurt coz the sodium lactate didn't make much difference.

I use 3:1 water when I want fancy swirls but you'll have to worry about the soap warping as it cures. I've been experimenting with lower amounts than that - gone as far as 2.5:1 and managed simple layers. Plain soap, and a majority soft oil recipe is fine with less water in my opinion.

Post cook liquids also affect warping I think. I've gotten less misshapen bars when I add all my liquid up front but that's not always possible so I try combining my additives with my split superfat, and have as little post cook liquids. Also, when I am attempting swirls I sit everything in a hot water bath. Less heat lost, the more fluidity.

 

[Kcryss]

Does not matter when you add the vinegar, it will not lower the ph of your soap.

I was just trying to figure out why she was doing it at the end of the cook. Seems like most people using vinegar are doing it at the beginning and using it instead of CA. Although I could be wrong on why they're doing it ... I'm still learning.

Yogurt works much better than sodium lactate, for fluidity, in my opinion. I started using both, then eventually just yogurt coz the sodium lactate didn't make much difference.

I use 3:1 water when I want fancy swirls but you'll have to worry about the soap warping as it cures. I've been experimenting with lower amounts than that - gone as far as 2.5:1 and managed simple layers. Plain soap, and a majority soft oil recipe is fine with less water in my opinion.

Post cook liquids also affect warping I think. I've gotten less misshapen bars when I add all my liquid up front but that's not always possible so I try combining my additives with my split superfat, and have as little post cook liquids. Also, when I am attempting swirls I sit everything in a hot water bath. Less heat lost, the more fluidity.

So, if I go with 2.7:1 and add yogurt and maybe a small amount of other liquid - like coconut milk or something, I should get something that's still fluid enough to make layers and possibly even swirls. Everything added at the end should either be warmed or as in the case of yogurt, room temp.

Thank you all for your input and for sharing your vast amount of knowledge!

So, what I've learned from this discussion (please correct me if any of this is wrong):

1. Vinegar added at the end really doesn't do anything except provide additional fluidity and could possibly even cause a problem with warping during cure due to excessive liquid.
2. Salt added to lye liquid before adding lye - makes for a harder bar and therefore longer lasting to a degree.
3. Sugar needs to be added up front to the lye liquid before adding lye. Sugar helps to make a nicer lather.
4. I have a crunchy daughter, and I myself am probably a bit 'scrunchy" - leave out the EDTA and continue using CA. Which I have around anyway for other things.
5. Hot process - need to use at min 2.5:1 and up to 3:1 - however 3:1 could potentially cause warping issues.

All of this information has certainly helped a great deal with formulating my next batch of soap!

This is what I came up with based on all of your input.
Please let me know if I should change anything.

 

[DeeAnna]

A lot of soapers believe vinegar lowers the pH of soap, but small amounts won't do much to the pH. If you add vinegar after the cook rather than upfront, the vinegar will increase the superfat by breaking some of the finished soap into fatty acids (FAs). Intentionally superfatting with FAs is a legitimate thing to do -- many commercial soaps are superfatted with added FAs.

I gather most small scale soapers aren't thinking of this, however, when they use vinegar. Instead they have pH lowering in mind when they add vinegar to soap. There's a recent thread here where someone recommended lowering the pH of soap to 7 or 8 by adding acid. I tried to explain the chemistry of why this causes more trouble than good, but I'm sure no matter what, this idea won't die any time soon just because I trot out some math and chemistry.

Hard to say what goals Valerie Mosher has in mind by adding vinegar. Could be wishful thinking or not -- you'd have to ask her.

***

I researched more about sodium acetate and sodium lactate recently and learned they are indeed mild chelators that are sometimes used for that purpose in foods and medical treatments.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended as chelators for use in protecting soap, lotions, and other B&B products, or for water treatment. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.

 

[Kcryss]

...If you add vinegar after the cook rather than upfront, the vinegar will increase the superfat by breaking some of the finished soap into fatty acids (FAs). Intentionally superfatting with FAs is a legitimate thing to do -- many commercial soaps are superfatted with added FAs.

I assume the FA's would be based on the oils used. I'll do some digging to see which/benefits etc. Thanks for the heads up on this.

I gather most small scale soapers aren't thinking of this, however, when they use vinegar. Instead they have pH lowering in mind when they add vinegar to soap. There's a recent thread here where someone recommended lowering the pH of soap to 7 or 8 by adding acid. I tried to explain the chemistry of why this causes more trouble than good, but I'm sure no matter what, this idea won't die any time soon just because I trot out some math and chemistry.

I was probably one of the people asking about pH, but thanks to your response and that from others, I have since given up on this idea. By the way, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but I love when you trot out your math and chemistry skills.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended as chelators for use in protecting soap, lotions, and other B&B products, or for water treatment. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

Sounds like sticking to CA is the best option at this point, at least for me.

Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.

At this point in my learning curve, I am not sure what other qualities those components bring so will be doing some more research.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[cmzaha]

A lot of soapers believe vinegar lowers the pH of soap, but small amounts won't do much to the pH. If you add vinegar after the cook rather than upfront, the vinegar will increase the superfat by breaking some of the finished soap into fatty acids (FAs). Intentionally superfatting with FAs is a legitimate thing to do -- many commercial soaps are superfatted with added FAs.

I gather most small scale soapers aren't thinking of this, however, when they use vinegar. Instead they have pH lowering in mind when they add vinegar to soap. There's a recent thread here where someone recommended lowering the pH of soap to 7 or 8 by adding acid. I tried to explain the chemistry of why this causes more trouble than good, but I'm sure no matter what, this idea won't die any time soon just because I trot out some math and chemistry.

Hard to say what goals Valerie Mosher has in mind by adding vinegar. Could be wishful thinking or not -- you'd have to ask her.

***

I researched more about sodium acetate and sodium lactate recently and learned they are indeed mild chelators that are sometimes used for that purpose in foods and medical treatments.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended as chelators for use in protecting soap, lotions, and other B&B products, or for water treatment. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.

I will stand corrected about vinegar not acting as a chelator, but I will mention I have not noticed any difference in soap and I use vinegar in 90% of my soaps. On the other hand, y daughter has noticed a big difference when I added Sodium Gluconate with EDTA to my soaps but down the road, I may try SG with GLDA since they supposedly do not have the pollution issues. I have to research more on the issue. The problem is I have a 5lb of EDTA to finish up before changing over. I had a huge scum problem and plumbing issues before using EDTA, citric acid did not do it for me. Interesting fact, my plumber would never use my soaps due to his number of call-outs years ago, now he does. Little something. When I first started soaping and knew nothing about chelators he would tell me it was soap build-up and scum. Who knows if that is true. We just all have to find what works for us.

There are much simpler ways to figure superfat by adding additional oils or upping superfat upfront versus trying to tweak superfat with vinegar in my opinion. If I do not have to do extra math I am a happy soaper. But I will admit I do not depend on Soapmaker's Friend to do the math for my vinegar since I have had it default back to grams when I have made a little change and it has gone unnoticed by me, so I miss my extra lye. It is a great feature but double check the input values.

 

[DeeAnna]

I stand corrected too -- I thought otherwise myself, Carolyn, but did some studying the other day and learned otherwise.

That said, not every chelator is suitable for every job. There are other chelators, as we've been discussing, that are going to do a much better job of reducing soap scum and protecting soap against rancidity. The main benefits of acetate and lactate in soap are for hardness, ease of umolding, ease of diluting liquid soap, fluidity in liquid and HP soap, etc., not for chelating.

 

[Kcryss]

I stand corrected too -- I thought otherwise myself, Carolyn, but did some studying the other day and learned otherwise.

That said, not every chelator is suitable for every job. There are other chelators, as we've been discussing, that are going to do a much better job of reducing soap scum and protecting soap against rancidity. The main benefits of acetate and lactate in soap are for hardness, ease of umolding, ease of diluting liquid soap, fluidity in liquid and HP soap, etc., not for chelating.

This discussion has given me a great deal more to research. I'm looking at GLDA posts right now and it appears they are recent. Will be posting more questions there I think.

 

[Dawni]

My max castor oil usage is 7%. Most of us use 5%. Sometimes I don't even use it lol

Some have reported softer and/or stickier soap when they used a lot of castor - like more than 10%. Some, not all..

Speaking of 10% many have said that any oil/butter less than that isn't noticeable. For sure, a 2% increase of your cocoa butter from 8 to 10 will make a difference in longevity. I for one don't particularly like olive oil, and I like the lather of canola so if it was me I'd split the amount of olive+canola.

I should also mention that when I use coconut as little as yours, which is almost all the time, I also lower my superfat. My personal rule is, the lower the cleansing, the lower the superfat. If my cleansing was around 10-12 I'd only superfat maybe 2-3.

Or... Don't listen to me and make that soap lol. Make a smaller batch. See how you like it then tweak it if you think it needs improvement.