Questions about recipes and % of superfat on soapcalc

[ngian]

Hello everyone.

I have already cooked 4 CP soap recipes, and I'm trying to find one recipe that I will like, before I start cooking in larger batches. I like it to be conditioning and with full lather.

I have tried in my 3rd recipe to fulfill the above characteristics with a recipe that has 3 major oils:

OO-40%, CO-30%, PO-30%

from soapcalc:
Soap Bar_______Quality Range_______Your Recipe
Hardness__________29 - 54______________46
Cleansing__________12 - 22______________20
Conditioning________44 - 69______________51
Bubbly____________14 - 46______________20
Creamy___________16 - 48______________25
Iodine____________41 - 70______________53
INS____________136 - 165_____________163

and with Lye Concentration: 30%, Superfat: 4%, Oatmeal flour, salt, sugar, silk.

I tried a small bar at 2 weeks time and I feel that it is very close to the characteristics that I wanted, except that there is a very tiny drying feeling left on my skin after washing, among the full and silky lather.


So after reading many useful posts here and along with such articles, I'm thinking of the next recipe that will erase this tiny issue of drying, by replacing part of CO and little of PO with PKO and a small part of OO with Castor:

Olive oil: 35%
Palm oil: 25%
Coconut oil: 20%
Palm kernel oil: 15%
Castor oil: 5%

and its properties via soapcalc:
----------------------
Soap Bar_______Quality Range_______Your Recipe
Hardness____________29 - 54______________45
Cleansing____________12 - 22______________23
Conditioning__________44 - 69______________51
Bubbly______________14 - 46______________28
Creamy_____________16 - 48______________27
Iodine______________41 - 70______________52
INS______________136 - 165______________163

I managed to keep the same INS value and adding more bubbles, and as I've read over here PKO has the same properties as CO but without being dry.

So If I manage to erase my tiny dry issue with this recipe I think it will be my favorite one.

And my question is this: Is this base/favorite oil recipe able to handle all the other different liquids that I' thinking to use? (beer, milk, yogurt, milk kefir, coffee, chocolate, aloe vera, tomato etc.) Or each liquid substitute (part or whole) will influence the properties of the oils mix?

What do you do with your creations? Do you stick with a favorite oil mix and play with the liquids and additives?

Now as it concerns superfat, wouldn't it be logical that when you use different % superfat, the properties of the final soap are affected? [Lather, Conditioning, ect)

I'm thinking that for eg in a castile soap (100% OO), if someone makes one batch with 5% superfat and another with 10%SF, will the second be more moisturizing as there will be more unsaponified oils and with even less lather? I'm thinking all this as sopacalc properties aren't affected when you change the superfat value.

I guess soapcal can calculate the amount of NaOH that is needed in relation to the SF value only... and the properties that are given are maybe when you superfat at 0% ?

Nikos

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think one major issue is that, in 4 batches, you haven't been able to try a combination with out one of each of those additives, nor at a full cure.

Does the silk help? What exactly is it doing for your soap? Unless you have made two batches where one has it and the other not, with no other changes that you can't positively identify, then you can't really be sure what you need to change. Also, how much of the additives (% or ppo) are you adding in?

It's odd that you add in the PKO but raise the total combined amount of the CO and PKO when you are trying to reduce the "squeaky clean" feeling. But, to be honest, that might even be down to your water and what you really need is something to combat hard water.

Regarding superfat, you will see that when you change it, the numbers don't change. This is because the numbers are based on the salts that are your soap, not any left over oil. So what CO does to your skin can be (and is!) totally different from what sodium cocoate does. Sodium cocoate being the salt that is made when we combine CO and naOH. The numbers for a 100% CO soap does not mean that using CO directly on the skin will have those sorts of results,

 

[Obsidian]

PKO is as cleansing and almost as drying as coconut. Whatever combo you use, I would keep it at 20% and see how you like that.

 

[Susie]

I would swap that palm to lard. Then up the amount to at least 45%, cut down the coconut/PKO to 20% as said above, then castor oil 5% for bubbles, and the balance in OO. If you have not tried lard for conditioning in soap, you just don't know how conditioning it can be.

I don't know what you mean by "I have already cooked 4 CP soap recipes". If it is CP, then either you CPOP(cold processed/ oven processed), or you did not cook it. "Cooking" soap is HP(hot processed). Did you cure the soap 4-6 weeks? If not, start there.

You need to get a base recipe that you like before adding other things like silk, milks, aloe vera, chocolate, etc. That way, you will know what each of those ingredients bring to the soap(or not).

Soapcalc bases those values on what oils are used. Period. Those numbers are handy, but not perfect.

If you are making 100% olive oil soap, you need to stick with the 5% superfat, as that year long cure ensures that the soap will be mild.

As far as playing with superfat amounts, I treat those like additives. Find a base recipe you like, THEN play with the superfat. Do NOT change the superfat in the batches you put additives in. Change ONE factor at the time, that way you know exactly what that one change brings to the soap. If it were me, I would get the whole base recipe, including superfat amount, before starting on additives.

 

[IrishLass]

Hello everyone.

I have already cooked 4 CP soap recipes, and I'm trying to find one recipe that I will like, before I start cooking in larger batches. I like it to be conditioning and with full lather.

I have tried in my 3rd recipe to fulfill the above characteristics with a recipe that has 3 major oils:

OO-40%, CO-30%, PO-30%

from soapcalc:
Soap Bar_______Quality Range_______Your Recipe
Hardness__________29 - 54______________46
Cleansing__________12 - 22______________20
Conditioning________44 - 69______________51
Bubbly____________14 - 46______________20
Creamy___________16 - 48______________25
Iodine____________41 - 70______________53
INS____________136 - 165_____________163

and with Lye Concentration: 30%, Superfat: 4%, Oatmeal flour, salt, sugar, silk.

I tried a small bar at 2 weeks time and I feel that it is very close to the characteristics that I wanted, except that there is a very tiny drying feeling left on my skin after washing, among the full and silky lather.

Hi Nikos! Since you found the above two-week-old soap to leave you with only a very tiny drying feeling after using, I would wait another 2 to 3 weeks and try it again before moving onto a different recipe. In my book, a soap that is only two weeks old is much too young to make any final judgment on. There are still chemical changes going on inside the soap at that time that will make it more mild and to also bring the lather to full maturity. If you like the lather now at only 2 weeks out, just wait until a few more weeks go by! It'll get even better!

So after reading many useful posts here and along with such articles, I'm thinking of the next recipe that will erase this tiny issue of drying, by replacing part of CO and little of PO with PKO and a small part of OO with Castor:

Olive oil: 35%
Palm oil: 25%
Coconut oil: 20%
Palm kernel oil: 15%
Castor oil: 5%

and its properties via soapcalc:
----------------------
Soap Bar_______Quality Range_______Your Recipe
Hardness____________29 - 54______________45
Cleansing____________12 - 22______________23
Conditioning__________44 - 69______________51
Bubbly______________14 - 46______________28
Creamy_____________16 - 48______________27
Iodine______________41 - 70______________52
INS______________136 - 165______________163

I managed to keep the same INS value and adding more bubbles, and as I've read over here PKO has the same properties as CO but without being dry.

As Obsidian pointed out, PKO is just about as cleansing as Coconut Oil. True, in comparison to CO it is less cleansing, but only by a point or two, which isn't by much. It's still on the list of the top-3 cleansing (and bubbly) oils of all time- coconut, PKO and babassu. From the looks of it, the revised recipe above will be even more cleansing than the first one.

If it were me, I would hold off on tweaking your recipe for now and just wait and see what your soap feels like in another few week's time. Then you'll have a better idea of how to go about tweaking it (if you still feel it needs any tweaking at all).


IrishLass

 

[ngian]

Hi everyone and thank you for your replies, they are very helpful and they are food for thought and searching even more.

I think one major issue is that, in 4 batches, you haven't been able to try a combination with out one of each of those additives, nor at a full cure.

Does the silk help? What exactly is it doing for your soap? Unless you have made two batches where one has it and the other not, with no other changes that you can't positively identify, then you can't really be sure what you need to change.

You need to get a base recipe that you like before adding other things like silk, milks, aloe vera, chocolate, etc. That way, you will know what each of those ingredients bring to the soap(or not).
....
As far as playing with superfat amounts, I treat those like additives. Find a base recipe you like, THEN play with the superfat. Do NOT change the superfat in the batches you put additives in. Change ONE factor at the time, that way you know exactly what that one change brings to the soap. If it were me, I would get the whole base recipe, including superfat amount, before starting on additives.

Craig and Susie I agree with you, someone must do many experiments changing a factor each time so as to understand which ingredient influences and how the final product.
But my soaping hobby does not have so much time to experiment as I'm a father of two little children -ages of 3 and 6-, soaping at my house when the kids have gone to sleep for safety reasons, and this usually takes place every Friday and that takes place around 2 times a month so far. So if I had to experiment much, it would took me maybe a year to get to know all the ingredients and their influence on soap. I'm impatience and it's like that I have to catch a train every few times a month, trying to experiment as I can but with large steps each time. Till now I'm very satisfied with the new soaping hobby and the soaps it creates.


As it concerns silk, I think I can feel it when I touch lather, it gives just great silky lather, and maybe also oatmeal helps a little on this, although I haven't tried one soap of mine without them.

Also, how much of the additives (% or ppo) are you adding in?

oatmeal floor & sugar: 2% PPO
salt: 1% PPO
silk: little as ~1cm² PPO

PKO is as cleansing and almost as drying as coconut. Whatever combo you use, I would keep it at 20% and see how you like that.

It's odd that you add in the PKO but raise the total combined amount of the CO and PKO when you are trying to reduce the "squeaky clean" feeling. But, to be honest, that might even be down to your water and what you really need is something to combat hard water.

Well I have read some posts in this forum and also from a local lady here who makes natural soaps, that PKO has the same cleaning properties with CO, except that it does not gives as much dry feeling as CO does. For sure I should have experiment this myself, but for now I do trial and error also with what others say. I would say that I read more for soap than I do make.

I don't think that I have hard tapped water here in Athens, you can see its properties here as I don't understand much.

I would swap that palm to lard. Then up the amount to at least 45%, cut down the coconut/PKO to 20% as said above, then castor oil 5% for bubbles, and the balance in OO. If you have not tried lard for conditioning in soap, you just don't know how conditioning it can be.

Susie, although I've read from others that they love lard, when you suggested me this oil, just afterwards I contacted my local butcher only to find out that he can give me lard by the end of next week, while seeking information here and on youtube to learn the major steps on how to render lard for soap, and I found out that it's about the same procedure as making ghee butter as I have done a year ago. Still I have some questions though on some details (how much water to add, distilled or not, is cleaning necessary etc.) that I hope to find easily the forthcoming days. As you can understand you gave me a new soap field for searching and lard will for sure be on my next experiments.

I don't know what you mean by "I have already cooked 4 CP soap recipes". If it is CP, then either you CPOP(cold processed/ oven processed), or you did not cook it. "Cooking" soap is HP(hot processed). Did you cure the soap 4-6 weeks? If not, start there.

Well I only do CPOP and maybe for the soap community I used the wrong expression. I label it as "cooking" as I'm inside my kitchen, mixing ingredients and put them in the oven. I will replace it with the "verb" CPOP so as for others not to misunderstand me.


So, after your responses I did change my recipe a bit to match your advices, just a few hours before I catch the Friday's night train!

Lye Concentration: 30%
SF: 5%
OO: (35%)
PO: (30%)
CO: (15%)
PKO: (15%)
Castor: (5%)
Oatmeal floor: 1Tbsp PPO @ oils
Titanium Dioxide: 1tsp PPO @ oils
Salt: 1tsp PPO @ water before adding 50% LYE
Sugar: 1Tbsp PPO @ water before adding 50% LYE
Silk @ water when mixing water and 50% LYE

I also added on 1/3 of the raw soap 1tsp of cocoa powder to make my first layered soap.

CPOPed for 1 hour @ 60ºC
Gel is not easily visible with TD but I realized that is has been done when the shinny look has gone more matte:

Shinny:

Matte:

I then took it out form the oven and left it outside the house, and after 6 hours I unmold it leaving it with the paper, and then after 6 more hours I cut it and started the curing process only to find out that:

I came together with Glycerine Rivers. Well after reading Auntie Clara's article Titanium Dioxide is to blame along with water concentration. Personally I don't fancy the look, and I will wait for the bar to test it after a month to see its properties. If I had used white mica, would the bar again would be prone to these rivers too?

Thank you for reading me till now,
Nikos

 

[DeeAnna]

Your water is very hard, based on the link you gave. When used with your water, soap probably does not lather well. Your skin may feel sticky and possibly a "tiny bit dry" or even slightly itchy or irritated.

From http://www.eydap.gr/en/SocialResponsibility/BusinessPractice/QualityCheck/ --
Expressed as calcium carbonate, your water hardness ranges from 150 mg/L to 250 mg/L.

General guidelines for classification of waters are:

0 to 60 mg/L (milligrams per liter) as calcium carbonate is classified as soft;
61 to 120 mg/L as moderately hard;
121 to 180 mg/L as hard; and
more than 180 mg/L as very hard.

Source: http://water.usgs.gov/edu/hardness.html

 

[ngian]

Thank you DeeAnna for your information. I have just learnt how hard is water here in Athens after also reading other Greek forums about this issue, and it seems that in major cities water is average very hard and in the rest smaller cities, villages and islands is even harder than that!

Generally when I wash my hair, I remember myself to always feel the need to clean two times with soap/shampoo, and when I travel outside the big cities, I feel the need of using more liquid / soap in order to feel clean.

So is there any soap recipes that are working better in hard water?

I know that there is a water issue with what kind of water to use for making soap, is there any advice for what kind of recipe to use in hard water?

Friendly Nikos

 

[DeeAnna]

All types of lye soap will react with hard water minerals to form that sticky itchy soap scum.

If you really, really want to get away from this problem, you need to switch to a synthetic detergent that does not react with hard water minerals.

If you want to stick with lye soap, then you need to consider adding an ingredient to your soap that reacts with some of the hard water minerals before the soap can. Sodium citrate is one possibility. Tetrasodium EDTA is another.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's a good post on sodium citrate and tetrasodium EDTA: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=432635

 

[ngian]

Thank you for informing me about these ingredients DeeAnna. A whole new chapter has just started about soaping.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's something I wrote up that you might find useful: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52456

 

[ngian]

I bought today sodium citrate, and this Friday I'm thinking of making the same recipe that I have already made but with the addition of sodium citrate at 3% of the total oils so as to compare the two bars when fully cured.
Will respond here in a few weeks.
Nikos

 

[ngian]

I bought today sodium citrate, and this Friday I'm thinking of making the same recipe that I have already made but with the addition of sodium citrate at 3% of the total oils so as to compare the two bars when fully cured.
Will respond here in a few weeks.
Nikos

After Easter I will be able to test the difference it gives to soap sodium citrate under hard water.

Until then I'm posting my first packaging I did to my soaps so as to give away to friends and family for feedback.

I'm using a craft paper and the label writes in Greek "Handmade Soap" next to the tree and in bold under it I note the oils used, and the additives in small letters.

When I will come to a recipe that would be already tested and acceptable, I will replace the bold oil names with the shampoo/body soap definitions or the fragrance/essential oil name, and write the oils along with the additives under it.

Nikos