Preservatives

Discussion in 'Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum' started by LoryLu, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. Apr 21, 2019 #41

    Andrew

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  2. Apr 21, 2019 #42

    LoryLu

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    This is interesting. I was talking to my father in-law the other day about natural preservatives. He says...make something outta birch bark, that stuff never rots! Lol. Would this be considered an all around preservative? Have you tried this?
     
  3. Apr 21, 2019 #43

    designline

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    if PH is 9...12 NOT need preservative!
     
  4. Apr 21, 2019 #44

    lsg

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    I think that you will find that is not necessarily true. Some of us have found that even with cream or liquid soap a preservative is necessary. This is especially true if you are selling or sharing a product.
     
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  5. Apr 21, 2019 #45

    earlene

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    No, it is stable within the pH range of 3 - 8. See page 12 of this document, linked to the product on the lotioncrafter website: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...05-8b8e-5563e8c82899.pdf?16298877254294914093
     
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  6. Apr 21, 2019 #46

    Mobjack Bay

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    I try to stay as “natural” as I can when making leave on products, but after seeing photos of all the things that can grow in lotions, I opted for using Germall plus in my emulsified lotions and creams. I believe it is effective over a relatively broad pH range (3-8) if that’s a consideration. The recommended concentration range in the finished product is 0.1 to 0.5% and I use 0.5% to be safe. My kitchen is not a sterile environment by any stretch of the imagination! Germall plus is heat sensitive, so I wait until the temperature is below 122 DF to add it to my lotions and creams. I’m making for myself and family and friends, not for sale.
     
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  7. Apr 21, 2019 #47

    Zany_in_CO

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    I don't mean to sound disrespectful, @decisions, but, maybe you do "still need a preservative", but I don't. :D And I've been at it for 14 years now. It all comes down to knowing what you're doing when formulating and processing liquid soap. There certainly are cases out there where some folks fool around with additives or the pH or whatever -- just don't do that! ;)

    I will agree that it's all a matter of personal preference, but I've never really understood why anyone would want to do that. All you have to do is go buy a brand name so-called "natural shampoo" that's 6-months old and contains a preservative -- give it a good sniff. To this date, I've never found one that doesn't fail, or morph, over time.

    You're better off buying a syndet -- they are at least safe when it comes to using preservatives.

    But that's just me; my experience.
     
  8. Apr 21, 2019 #48

    cmzaha

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    I use Suttocide A, and have some LS that I made a few years ago. It is a very poor to impossible seller for me so I do not make it often. It can turn your product light pink to red if a fragrance or essential oil contains citral.

    In my opinion no matter how long someone makes a product does not mean there is not a problem unless it is tested. I just know I have seen mold in the top of the bottle and the bottom of the bottle with unpreserved I have left to keep an eye on. Catherine Failor's method is not necessarily the best today because so many have tested different methods, and knowledge is evolving to make better, safer products.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  9. Apr 21, 2019 #49

    MGM

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    I have only found mold in one body product in my life (but found some in two different containers of apple juice in two different houses in one week once!): a Trader Joe's fruity face scrub. It was in my shower, with water and dirty fingers in it for months, maybe a year, so it's no shocker. Maybe what is shocking is that it doesn't seem to contain a preservative? My Latin isn't up to snuff....anyone else see a preservative (as opposed to an anti-oxidant) here?

    https://www.makeupalley.com/product...ueberry--Acai-Facial-Scrub/Trader-Joes/Scrubs
     
  10. Apr 21, 2019 #50

    Andrew

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    Almost no soaps in the artisan wet shaving market contain preservatives and mold is a constant threat. Although a rare occasion, you do see mold growing on top, in, and underneath the soap in the tubs. It can and does happen. Mold and bacteria can grow in some pretty extreme environments including the pH range of soap. What they need is water. Since liquid soap has water in it, it is susceptible to contamination. Contamination can come from the containers themselves, poorly made product, or contamination during bottling. It also can come from refilling containers.

    I think the issue comes down to personal vs. commercial use. I do not believe that personal use dictates preservatives in liquid soap. You make it as you need it. If you are making liquid soap and selling it in an environment where it can sit on the store for months before being bought then adding a preservative would be prudent as a single bad unit can kill sales in a store. A single batch can be shipped to a dozen stores or more. If that batch went bad then one would have to issue a recall which is a serious headache. It may also prevent lawsuits in this unfortunate sue happy time.

    I make 10 gallons of liquid soap at a time. An all natural preservative can save quite a bit of money if a batch goes bad without harming the brand.

    One other point to consider is how you are scenting the soap. I use essential oils. While much pseudoscience is disseminated about various essential oil benefits, one which has been studied, and proved is antibacterial effects of various essential oils. The short of it is you can use various essential oils both for scent and product preservation.
     
  11. Jul 27, 2019 #51

    Zany_in_CO

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    Exactly. Since preservatives are pH specific, formulated for lotions and creams and like products, and since there is no preservative specifically formulated for liquid soap, would it be safe to say that as long as your LS is pH 9 to 11, no preservative is necessary?

    As to the point about adding water to liquid soap, I just tested the LS in my foamer. It is fully saponified soap (phenolphthalein drops); diluted at a rate of 40% soap to 60% water; then further diluted at a rate of 1 part soap to 3 parts water. It has a pH 9.5 and no sign of nasties or mold.
    I'm just sayin'...
     
  12. Jul 27, 2019 #52

    DeeAnna

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    Preservatives are chemical blends that have certain requirements (pH, temperature, presence or absence of other chemicals, etc.) to function properly. If your particular product contains ingredients or other properties that do not meet the requirements, the product is incompatible with the preservative. It doesn't matter whether the product is lotion or soap.

    There are 3 preservatives I know of that are suitable for alkaline products, which includes liquid soap -- Liquid germall plus (to pH 10), Phenoxyethanol (to pH 10), and Suttocide A (to pH 12).

    "...would it be safe to say that as long as your LS is pH 9 to 11, no preservative is necessary?

    No, I don't think it's safe or even reasonable to say that. It makes no logical sense. There are preservatives suitable for alkaline products. Ergo, there are preservatives suitable for liquid soap should the maker decide to use a preservative.

    Even if there were zero preservatives that were effective at the alkaline pH of liquid soap ... that would still not prove your point that preservatives for LS are unnecessary.

    "...As to the point about adding water to liquid soap, I just tested the LS in my foamer... It has a pH 9.5 and no sign of nasties or mold..."

    Last time you got food poisoning from eating contaminated food, did you see, smell, or taste the E coli, staph, clostridium, norovirus organisms in the food? It is a scientific fact that just because you can't SEE microorganisms growing doesn't mean they aren't present in numbers that may be a health hazard.

    I do not understand why you persist in believing contaminated B&B products have to show visible signs of microbial growth before you deem them contaminated. It makes no sense to have that point of view.

    Some of us are going to use preservatives in liquid soap and some of us won't. I'm pretty careful in my comments about the preservative vs. no preservative wrangle to leave room for a variety of opinions. There's no need to bolster your no-preservative point of view with pseudo-scientific logic. Whether you do or don't makes no matter to me -- I will be the last one to lecture you that you should add preservative.

    ***

    For those who are reading this and wondering what my advice is -- The more dilute the liquid soap, the less stable the alkaline pH will be in the long run. The more food sources people add to liquid soap, the more likely that microbes are likely to grow. For both of those reasons, using a preservative may be a wise choice. If you add more than a trace of microbial food (aloe, milk, sugar, honey, etc.) to liquid soap, it's very likely no preservative will be effective, including the preservative effect of high pH. If you choose use a preservative, use one that's rated for the alkaline pH of this product and also keep the food content in your liquid soap very low.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  13. Jul 27, 2019 #53

    SoaperForLife

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    Zany, why don't you send a sample of your LS to Sagescript and have a plate count done. It isn't as good as a challenge test but it might a better barometer of the safety of your product as this point.
     
  14. Jul 28, 2019 #54

    Zany_in_CO

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    Deleted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  15. Jul 28, 2019 #55

    Susie

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    I am a firm "no preservative" user. I do not sell my liquid soap. I only make it for friends and family. So please don't think I am arguing for preservatives. However, for the very reasons you quoted in your post, please don't think that the above statement is true. If you got sued, no judge or jury would believe that essential oils were an effective preservative. Somebody somewhere would sue you if they happened to get an infection while using your product, and if the plaintiff's attorney could prove that you KNEW there was a chance that your product could grow nasties and you STILL chose not to use a preservative, you would lose. They would not even have to prove that your soap contains something bad. Just the mere suggestion of not "protecting" the public would be enough in this current period of idiocy. And while I think that not using the preservatives is the more ecologically sound and healthy choice, I am an odd creature today...educated...at least on the choices I make.
     
  16. Jul 28, 2019 #56

    DeeAnna

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    Then don't say things like this: "...It has a pH 9.5 and no sign of nasties or mold......"
     
  17. Jul 28, 2019 #57

    cmzaha

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    All of the above and I will throw the fact that Insurance, 99% of the time Does Not cover Mold. So something else to consider. I have had a diluted LS mold which was not preserved, so I was convinced to preserve. Although I make it seldom it is now preserved after dilution. I do not dilute my entire batches of paste but dilute as I need to.
     
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  18. Aug 30, 2019 #58

    Lankan

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    Would you consider the NATICIDE by Sinerga over the above preservatives. their site states that it is from Natural Identical sources and effective between pH 4-9.
    https://www.sinerga.it/en/raw-materials/products/microbial-inhibitor/naticide
     
  19. Aug 30, 2019 #59

    Dahila

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    Naticide must be accompany with other one cause it does not work against mold . You should read about it on Making skincare, I do preserve LS with Suttocide A , which you use in amount of 0.1% - 0.3%. Not good with citrus cause it drift into red color.
    Good for products with a pH of 3.5 to 12.
    Suitable for use as a gelling agent with carbomers due to the high alkalinity of this preservative.
    Germall suppose to be effective from 3-8 but I heard that is up to 11 ph so many people use it in the LS.
    I like to use Phenonip like Carolyn because it is very effective. The internet is full of fear mongers. I would rather read scientific research that blogs, except; Swift monkey, DeeAnna, and making skin care. That blogs I do read, but they do go with the science. You constantly link people to blogs, I checked some, and they are not good, at least most of them.
    Zany with all due respect, your posts are unwise. Please do not say that it does not need preservation. I imagine infection on my skin (eczema) when I am constantly scratching my skin due itching. I conclusion I do preserve everything except the salves and balms; products that do not contain any water. Vit E or ROE are antioxidant ; slowing rancidity of oil that all they do. You can add them or not to LS they do not preserve it at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
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  20. Aug 30, 2019 #60

    Lankan

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    the website chaims to be effective against molds also

    Naticide is a vegetal origin ingredient with a wide spectrum of activity, being effective against Gram+, Gram-, yeasts and moulds in a pH range between 4 - 9.

    Anyone heard of a preservative named DMDMH. When I asked my local chemical store for a preservative they suggested this. But I opted to explore more before using it.
     

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