Preservatives

Discussion in 'Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum' started by LoryLu, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. Mar 18, 2019 #21

    lsg

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    Propylen glycol is a routine treatment for ketosis in dairy cows. It is given orally or included in feed. You can buy it at your farm store. If propylene glycol was so harmful, then the FDA would be after dairymen to stop using it.
     
  2. Mar 24, 2019 #22

    earlene

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    I see your points, but to be fair, sellers MUST think of the potential customers and what their education level may or may not be when it comes to buying/using/storing soap. I have known people who think soap is 'by definition' always clean and expect it to remain so under all conditions. There are people who hoard soap and would never toss away a bottle of liquid soap even if you put an expiration date on it. And there are plenty of people whose eyesight is not good enough to see even the most obvious yuckies growing in/on their soap. Then there are people with dementia or other medically compromising conditions who may not have the wherewithall to determine if the product is still safe and just go ahead and use it. These are the kinds of people a seller has to consider. Not all of our customers (not mine, I don't sell) are as savvy as the average soap or Bath & Body product maker.
     
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  3. Mar 24, 2019 #23

    reeeen4

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    Yep I can definitely see that argument too, such a hard decision when you sell since your liable for all these potential issues.
     
  4. Mar 24, 2019 #24

    Zany_in_CO

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    Majority of One here. I've said it before and I'll say it again, with all due respect to my colleagues. Fully saponified soap requires no preservative because nasties don't survive in an alkaline (pH over 7.5) environment. Finished LS is usually pH 9-11.

    NOTE: Using lotion to serve as an example for liquid soap is like comparing oranges and apples. Lenarenee's example of yucky lotion above, DOES require a preservative -- most lotions are acidic (below pH 7) and even if you're making a small batch for personal use, don't forget the preservative. It can make you sick -- even before the nasties show up in the product.

    I've been making LS since 2004 and I do not use a preservative, nor do the commercial sellers on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo group. (I'm just sayin'). I do, however, use antioxidants ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) and Vitamin E in every batch.

    Well known and not-so-well-known commercial natural/organic liquid soaps on the market do not use preservatives, not only for the reasons reeeen4 mentioned above I suspect, but because it simply isn't necessary. Examples:

    Vermont Soap - Foaming Hand Soap
    http://www.vermontsoap.com/foamer.shtml
    Ingredients: Saponified organic olive, coconut and jojoba oils, vegetable glycerin, organic aloe vera and rosemary extract.
    NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives.

    Dr. Bronner's http://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/LS.htm
    Pure Castile Liquid Soap - Baby Unscented 32oz.
    https://tinyurl.com/All-Natural-Castile-Liquid-Soap
    Ingredients: Water, Saponified Organic Coconut*, Organic Palm* and Organic Olive* Oils (w/Retained Glycerin), Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Essential Oils**, Citric Acid, Vitamin E
    NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant Vitamin E -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives. The citric acid may contain preservative qualities as well. Dunno. I suspect it's there to prevent scum on the tub & shower walls.

    Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
    Ingredients Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract

    Oregon Soap Company - Liquid Castile Soap
    Ingredients: cocos nucifera (coconut) oil,* olea europaea (olive) fruit oil,* helianthus annuus (sunflower) seed oil,* potassium hydroxide, aloe barbadensis leaf juice,* citric acid, butyrospermum parkii (shea butter),* rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) flower extract. *organic ingredient

    Carolina Castile Soap
    Ingredients Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Olive Oil, Kukui Nut Oil, Organic Cocoa Butter, Citric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide (none remains after saponification), Water, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)

    Cove Castile Soap & many more that you can find by googling "all natural liquid soap".

    Not trying to be argumentative, Peeps, I'm just sayin' what I think needs to be said... running away now :goodbye1:

    Hiya LoryLu,
    Here's a link to a site that has excellent tutorials and other information including Tips & Tricks that you may find useful:

    http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/search/label/tutorial
    Did the citric acid "flake out"? If so, warm the diluted LS to 140°F or so and keep stirring slowly to incorporate it. Also, are you using the CA straight? or diluted? A 20% CA dilution is recommended for easier incorporation. You don't need much. I use it at a rate of 0.06% (I think that's correct... I can't access my notes because of a SNAFU on a recent installation of software on my iMac. :rolleyes:)

    ETA: The addition of citric acid will lower the pH of the soap so be sure to measure the pH before and after to track it. Personally, I would wait 24 hours before deciding whether or not to add more. ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2019
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  5. Mar 25, 2019 #25

    Meena

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    Hold the phone: This preservative discussion is all well and fine for lotions and non-soap products containing water, but isn't it the scientific consensus that the pH of Lye soaps is too high for molds and bacteria?? This includes LS.

    ETA: oh hahahaha @Zany_in_CO just brought up the same point. Hahaha, majority of 2, Zany. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  6. Mar 25, 2019 #26

    lenarenee

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    No. It's not. The Ph is no guarantee that the microbes have been killed. Not only are there microbes that thrive in alkaline environments, but bacteria (I don't know about other microbes in this particular instance) can adapt to higher pH in certain conditions, and also be affected by other factors that contribute to their survival despite not normally surviving in a higher pH. For example; the dying microbes themselves can change the pH of the substance they're in.

    We did experiments in lab with agar plates with different levels of pH (all the way up to 10) Of the 7 different types of bacterial tested - EVERY SINGLE ONE survived in ALL pHs. Yes, there were different amounts of bacterial growth and not all plates had growth, but we grew bacteria in all alkaline pH levels. (this was a college lab with about 50 students doing the same experiments in teams - so 25 tests of pH 7, 25 tests of pH 8, and so on)
    (I'll see if I still have the notes with the specifics class results)

    My example about lotion was not comparing apples and oranges. It was illustrating that the unexpected does happen and it's not as uncommon as we might hope. That lotion, despite containing 2 preservatives, despite being one of Amazon's top sellers for it's type, despite being a fresh batch, still grew a whole lot of something.

    A couple other things to consider:

    it's legal in the US to "hide" your preservative in other ingredients, which means they won't have to listed on the label. The commercial labels can be deceptive.

    pH is fickle. I can change the pH of my aquariums by simply sticking my hand into it. Shaking a bottle of alkaline water and removing its lid - can change it's pH.

    I've never done it, nor cared to, but testing the pH of soap is complicated, and requires better equipment than pH strips. So if someone wants to sell liquid soap and bet on the pH being your savior from liability, you'll be wise to find out the most accurate way to do so.

    Most importantly: you never know how a customer is going to treat that soap. I used to add water to the last 1/2 inch of soap, shake it, and try to get through the day without needing to run to the store for more. I opened the container - exposing it to air, added city water - which contains microbes, and added water. Now, we still have our fingers and hands, so seems like nothing happened. But we also didn't use liquid soap to clean any injured hands (liquid soap was only in the powder room where we didn't keep the first aid).

    I don't preserve the soap I make and use. It's stored in sanitized containers and refrigerated. Small batches. I re-use the pumps, but also soap them in a Clorox solution first. If I sold liquid soap, I would use a preservative. (geez, does that mean it would have to be challenge tested like lotion? If so, then I wouldn't sell)
     
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  7. Mar 25, 2019 #27

    SaltedFig

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    You might want to update your links and ingredients lists ... looks like Natricide, which is a broad spectrum preservative that can be listed as a fragrance, is pretty popular ...

    Naticide avoids the title preservative (it's INCI ingredient name is "fragrance" or "perfume").
    It is described by the manufacturer as a broad spectrum preservative: https://www.sinerga.it/en/raw-materials/products/microbial-inhibitor/naticide

    I checked a couple of big brands from your list, and these are the results:

    Dr Bronners:
    Your ingredients list is out of date - a preservative has now been added (the "Natural Almond fragrance", aka Naticide)

    Ingredients list as at March 2019: https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap

    Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol

    Dr Woods:
    "Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
    Ingredients Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E),
    Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract"
     
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  8. Mar 25, 2019 #28

    Meena

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    Found someone here asking about it in 2011:

    https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/about-naticide-preservative.21975/#post-208098

    https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/about-naticide-preservative.21975/#post-208144

    Most of the info/sales of it is coming from the UK. It may be less familiar in the U.S.?

    https://naturallybalmy.co.uk/products/naticide

    "Naticide is an exciting natural preservative, made from essential oil compounds, which also acts as a fragrance - making this a 2-in-1 product!

    Naticide is a Trade name and not acceptable for use on your product labels ingredient list. The correct INCI name for your label, when using Naticide is Parfum or Fragrance. This means, you can technically describe your product as preservative-free!

    Naticide is a vegetable-based preservative with a Vanilla and Almond aroma used to preserve cosmetic formulations, providing good product stability and resistance to microbial contamination."

    "- Inhibits bacterial growth in your cosmetic formulations.
    - It does not contain allergens included in the Official Journal of the European Union; therefore it is considered to be a non-irritant.
    - You may be able to include Naticide in your organic cosmetic formulations, please contact an approved organic certifier for further information."

    Also found:

    Need a Natural Preservative? Try Naticide from Sinerga
    Harvey M. Fishman, Consultant
    02.05.09

    These days, marketing people are constantly looking for a natural antimicrobial that does not have to be listed as a preservative, so they can call the product “preservative free.” ... There is such an ingredient manufactured by Sinerga, an Italian company.The ingredient is marketed under the name Naticide, which is distributed in the U.S. by Ingredimax, which is based in Washington, N.J.

    [Meena's Note: 2009 article, not sure if this is still the distributor, and also not sure if this product is still in use or favor.]

    Naticide is a vegetable-based fragrance (INCI: Fragrance). It is a clear liquid, colorless to amber yellow, with an almond and vanilla odor. Up to 0.6% is dispersible in water, with complete solubility in glycol and alcohol.It is not an eye or skin irritant or a skin sensitizer.

    It showed good anti-microbial activity against the following organisms: two gram positive bacteria, six gram negative bacteria including E coli and Pseudomonas aeruginasae, two yeasts including Candida albicans, and three molds including Aspergilus niger and flavus.

    The Sole Preservative
    When formulating with Naticide, 0.3-1% is the suggested dosage, depending on the type of formula. It should be added with vigorous stirring.

    In an emulsion, part is added to the water phase, and the rest to the oil phase. For example, if 1% Naticide is to be used, only a maximum of 0.6% can be dispersed in the water phase.The other 0.4% is added to the oil phase, or it may be solubilized before adding to the aqueous portion. The recommended pH range is between 4 and 9."

    Conclusion:
    I would be willing to try this stuff, which opens up the area of lotions for me now. I am not willing to use the other common products (GermAll, etc). I consider myself a committed organic consumer with very few exceptions.

    Side note: I do not use any preservatives or *-cides in my LS, and I do not sell or even give away anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  9. Mar 25, 2019 #29

    cmzaha

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    I have had LS grow mold so I alway preserve it
     
  10. Mar 25, 2019 #30

    Zany_in_CO

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    Naticide! Who knew?! Not me, that's for sure. ILST (I Learned Something Today) Thank you all. I'm taking notes. Interesting, though, that the INCI is "Fragrance" and not the constituents that give it preservative qualities. Hmmm ????

    ETA: Just an FYI. I'm not saying anything one way or another. Assuming that one of the constituents of Naticide is Bitter Almond Essential Oil (NOT sweet almond oil), I did a quick search. Here's what I found (interesting):

    OT: Quick TIP to Newbies: When quoting sources from the internet, even if considered "public domain", a bit of Netiquette, aka 'Self Policing' is recommended. To avoid "Copyright Infringement" laws, and to show respect to the author, rather than copy & paste large blocks of text, use your own words and add a link to the source; or do as I did above -- putting 1-3 sentences in quotes and adding the link (to read more) is considered acceptable. :thumbs:

    FYI: To quote a bit of text, look at the formatting menu at the top. Find the smiley face, then go 3 icons to the right for the "quotes" icon -- looks like a flag. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  11. Mar 25, 2019 #31

    Sultana

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    look up the health risks of using rancid soap, or using moldy or bacterial laced products
     
  12. Mar 26, 2019 #32

    SaltedFig

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    Naticide is a synthetic preservative (as can be seen in the link to the manufacturers page in my earlier post)
    It does not contain Bitter Almond essential oil.

    The reason it must be listed as a perfume or fragrance is because the preservative is not listed on the European list of preservatives (so it is not allowed to be listed as a preservative). Apparently it is cost prohibitive to get a new preservative on the list, and given the current climate, I believe that having an INCI that does not use the word "preservative" might be popular in some quarters (I'm not saying I agree with this way of doing things, purely pointing out that it occurs).
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  13. Mar 28, 2019 #33

    earlene

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    What preservative do you recommend for LS, cmzaha? I have considered using some for my own personal use for my Liquid Shaving soap. Simply because the idea of cutting myself shaving would be an invitation to infection if something were to grow in my LS.

    TO the rest of the thread readers:

    Speaking of not knowing what people do with the LS after it leaves you? Well, I'll tell you what my DIL does to extend the life of her dish soap: She adds water to it and thins it down so much that it squirts out of the bottle like a rocket. She also does this with other liquids (facial products, cleaning solutions, etc.) And my guess is that my DIL is not alone in this habit of extending the life of liquid soaps of all sorts; I believe it is probably a common enough practice in people who grew up learning and needing to be as frugal as possible. Some old habits die hard, and some never die in spite of improved financial circumstances. And if their financial circumstances are sketchy, then all the more reason to attempt to extend the life of their product by adding a little water to it now and then.

    So knowing what I know now, if I were selling LS or any other liquid product, not only would I add a preservative, but I would also add to the label a warning such as: "To maintain full effectiveness, Do not dilute this product." Or words to that effect.
     
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  14. Mar 28, 2019 #34

    Sapo

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    You're wrong.

    None of the Bronner's soaps contain a preservative. You picked the only product they have that does not use EOs for scent (therefore the only possible one that could have hidden Naticide) and claimed that Natural Almond Fragrance=Naticide, when it is likelier* (natural) benzaldehyde (proof below).

    Their soap ingredients:
    Peppermint:
    Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Mentha Arvensis, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Mentha Piperita, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
    https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Peppermint

    German (for reassurance that they aren't bypassing any loose laws from the US):
    Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Mentha Arvensis Oil (Ackerminzöl), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Mentha Piperita Oil (Pfefferminzöl), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Limonene◊

    Lavender:
    Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Lavandin Extract, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Lavender Extract, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
    https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Lavender

    German: Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Lavandula Hybrida Oil (Lavandinöl*), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Lavandula Angustifolia Oil (Lavendelöl*), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Coumarin◊, Geraniol◊, Limonene◊, Linalool◊

    Almond:
    Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
    https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Almond

    German:
    Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Parfum (natürliches Mandelaroma), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E)

    As evident, they use nothing of the sort.

    *Now to explain why it is likelier benzaldehyde than Naticide:
    First, why would they preserve their Almond scent but not the others? Second; before the label wording change, which was likely done for customer appeal (natural almond fragrance sounds better than benzaldehyde), the below was the label-benzaldehyde is visible. And third: Naticide can be labeled as Fragrance or Parfum, but probably not something as specific as Parfum (Natural almond fragrance).
    [​IMG]

    LS as is and by itself requires no preservation, data from the global sales and success of this (and others like it) product would suggest. Quite right about the fact that consumers may wrongly use the product and create a need for preservation, though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  15. Mar 28, 2019 #35

    SaltedFig

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    "You're wrong.

    None of the Bronner's soaps contain a preservative. You picked the only product they have that does not use EOs for scent (therefore the only possible one that could have hidden Naticide) and claimed that Natural Almond Fragrance=Naticide, when it is likelier* (natural) benzaldehyde (proof below)."


    No, I did not pick the product, it is the ingredient list that is displayed when the liquid castile soap page is loaded.
    (Not being a Dr Bronner buyer, I didn't even notice that it had some coloured dots to the side for different scents)
    Looking at their "baby unscented" coloured dot, it does not include an obvious preservative.

    *Now to explain why it is likelier benzaldehyde than Naticide:
    First, why would they preserve their Almond scent but not the others? Second; before the label wording change, which was likely done for customer appeal (natural almond fragrance sounds better than benzaldehyde), the below was the label-benzaldehyde is visible. And third: Naticide can be labeled as Fragrance or Parfum, but probably not something as specific as Parfum (Natural almond fragrance).


    Thank you for pointing out the benzaldehyde.
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/benzaldehyde
     
  16. Mar 28, 2019 #36

    Zany_in_CO

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    Thank you for your post, Sapo. That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the first place, but you said it so much better (and succinctly) than I could.
    Thanks.gif
    With apologies to LoryLU for the hijack... I think this needs to be said here...

    With my over 10 years as an active member on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group, which started in 2000, right after Catherine Failor published her book on making LS in 1999, I learned how important it is to be sure that your paste (soap base) is fully saponified before dilution. JMHO and IME , this is the most common mistake Newbies make... not cooking the soap long enough (HP), or not waiting long enough (CP), until it tests neutral (fully saponified) with pheno drops (my preference), the soap-in-water method or the zap test.

    NOTE: Altho the 2-week sequester period (after dilution) has fallen out of favor in recent years, it's still the best time, IMO and IME, to correct any problems that may occur. The sequester allows time for any unsaponified fat to rise to the top or for other stuff to settle on the bottom as sediment -- as in GM LS.

    Newbies also tend to use pH testing to see if the paste is "done". However, pH and fully saponified soap are not the same thing. Faith's Tutorials at Alaiyna B's Blogspot is one of the best places to learn how to make LS, IMO and IME. She offers basic info, trial recipes, FAQs, Tips & Tricks and has good information about the pH factor.

    BACK ON TOPIC: She also has an FAQ where she discusses the use of preservatives in Liquid Soap.

    HTH Wave.gif

    ETA: LoryLu, I am happy to remove this hijack and start a new thread if you would like me to do that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  17. Apr 17, 2019 #37

    CherylMoore

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    [QUOTE=" I applied the lotion at night, in a darkened bedroom and wasn't paying attention. But the following night I was wide awake and saw this.....!

    View attachment 37600 [/QUOTE]
    Wow, that is disgusting. Scary.
     
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  18. Apr 21, 2019 #38

    decisions

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    Head on over to the liquid soap making group on FB for a very nice explanation of why you still need a preservative in liquid soap -

    eta - just because "the big guys" either don't use a preservative or they use one and label it as fragrance or they just don't list it in their ingredients, they can manufacture under sterile conditions while we manufacture under sanitary conditions.
     
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  19. Apr 21, 2019 #39

    Andrew

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  20. Apr 21, 2019 #40

    DeeAnna

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    That preservative is only rated for pH of 3 to 8, so is not suitable for liquid soap.
     
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