Palm Oil alternatives?

[LBussy]

If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.

I am the very last person (generally) to get all bent about such things, but I think maybe you've missed the point while explaining how others have - not trying to start a fight, just explaining how I see such concerns:

I completely agree with your assessment of the true direct fiscal impact of a cottage-industry making a change. What if I said (and honestly I often do) that my styrofoam plate isn't going to make a difference till the rest of the world changes? What if I say my air conditioner's refrigerant is a drop in a drop of a drop of a bucket compared to commercial uses? What if I say you can't die from a couple of milligrams of lead in my paint?

People who believe there should be a change are being dishonest with themselves if they do not start by making the change themselves. Otherwise they could very reasonably be called hypocrites. Look at it on the global scale: The US has (finally) cleaned up it's act environmentally in many ways AFTER benefitting from lose regulation and a general apathy towards the environment. The Chinese look at us when we tell them not to pollute and they say: "easy for you to say, look what you did to get where you are!"

So, if a person tells me they are vegan, I expect them to act the part. If presented with evidence that a product they use is somehow the result of cruelty to animals I would reasonably expect them to avoid it's use or I would rightfully consider them a hypocrite. When Al Gore's home electricity bills exceeded that of many small towns, yet he was out preaching about global warming, I and many others considered him the worst kind of hypocrite. Even if one person can't make a direct difference, they still need to be true to their beliefs.

Remember:

(Lest anyone consider this my own form of personal belief statement regarding Palm Oil, it is not. I rather think all things will find a balance on their own. If that results in humanity being wiped off the earth then that too is what must happen. I eat meat and use palm oil because I want to.)

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Even if one person can't make a direct difference, they still need to be true to their beliefs.

:clap:

 

[topofmurrayhill]

People who believe there should be a change are being dishonest with themselves if they do not start by making the change themselves. Otherwise they could very reasonably be called hypocrites.

I totally agree, but I was making a subtler point. There are legitimate uses for palm oil, and there are uses for it that should be mitigated. Making soap is a legitimate use, because palm oil is uniquely suited to the product and there is no practical replacement in the realm of vegetable oil.

Nobody is saying that the palm oil industry should be shut down. That would be an over-reaction that would cause a lot of human suffering and needlessly deprive the world of a useful product. There are those who rightfully should be among the customers that keep this industry alive, and WE are among them.

Not very much palm oil goes even into commercial soap production. This is distinct from using palm olein as cooking oil when there are countless alternatives that work just as well. This resource is being abused in places like China and the EU.

We are becoming a nation of faddists, and it's difficult to respect it when I see so little thought going into it. Then you get stuff like people being anti-GMO but they stare blankly if you ask why they would be against cisgenic modification and not just transgenic, or how they propose to feed the world on organic produce. You get chemophobia and the the Food Babe cult of ignorance and the anti-vaxx conspiracy crowd.

Coming back around to your first statement, there's no cause to respect the approach of everyone who thinks there needs to be a change.

 

[kchaystack]

If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.

While I agree that most people who object to palm oil do so as a knee jerk reaction to information they have heard - I think this is kinda harsh. Very few individuals have their minds changed by insults.

But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.

The problem is the manufacturers of food in the us are increasing their usage. Look at the ingredients to you peanut butter (even the all natural ones), your coffee creamer, your sandwich bread... So, while we might not use the bulk, the US is increasing its demand.

Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...

There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.

So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.

Well, just because we as a group are not significant part of the problem, does not mean we shouldn't be trying to be part of the solution.

Now that solution is not completely giving up palm oil. If the palm oil industry were to collapse, it would devastate the economy of several very poor nations, and would mean the families that depend on the very meager income they make for hours and hours of backbreaking labor would no longer have that income.

So, we should be vocal proponents of sustainable palm. We need to make sure that our dollars, few that they really are, support efforts of RSPO and other organizations that are trying to pressure sustainable practices, and to keep pressure on those organizations (RSPO and the like) so they keep improving their auditing and certification processes. It would also be good to donate to RSPO when possible to help fund them.

Yes it is a lot of work. But I think it is worth it so we leave the world in a better place than when we got it.

After you have done your research, if you still want to avoid palm, I don't see this as a bad thing, or you being 'misguided'. There are palm free recipes out there. You will have to accept that your bars will be different. They might not be as hard or last as long. They might need a longer cure. The other ingredients you use might be more expensive. It will still be perfectly serviceable soap, will get you clean, not make your skin tight and all the other things we have come to expect with soap.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

While I agree that most people who object to palm oil do so as a knee jerk reaction to information they have heard - I think this is kinda harsh. Very few individuals have their minds changed by insults.

Sorry, fair point. That was spilling over from frustration with somewhat more misguided groups or potentially harmful causes.

 

[dixiedragon]

If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.

The point is not to stop using palm oil. The point is not to over-use it and to manage production in a sustainable fashion. Overusing it means stuff like cooking oil when obviously there are countless options for that.

But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.

Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...

There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.

So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.

Your point would be valid if a poster was berating somebody for using palm oil. Since that's not what happened here, your point is not valid.

Just like it would be rude for me to berate somebody for being "misguided" by using palm instead of tallow or lard.

And BTW, many times the only thing that creates change is wide spread abhorrence of something. The only thing that put a dent in the ivory trade is wide spread abhorrence of ivory significantly shrinking the market. Same thing applies to fur and whale products.

 

[LBussy]

And BTW, many times the only thing that creates change is wide spread abhorrence of something. The only thing that put a dent in the ivory trade is wide spread abhorrence of ivory significantly shrinking the market. Same thing applies to fur and whale products.

Reminds me of the world's shortest joke:

"A baby seal walks into a club ... "

Yeah it's a horrible joke but we're in danger of teetering off the side here and someone needed to do it.

 

[kchaystack]

Sorry, fair point. That was spilling over from frustration with somewhat more misguided groups or potentially harmful causes.

No worries, I understand.

I was browsing YouTube and found a video promoting a artisan soap making company. I was interested in seeing how they did things, and had to stop about 10 min in because of all the snake oil that was flowing. I would almost rather listen to stick blending than some of the claims they were making.

I like to present information I have found not only to help people who have the same questions I had when I started but also maybe help those who sell will have some defense against the the people who would attack them for what they use.

Like I said, I agree with most of what you said.

 

[lenarenee]

If by chance you are committed to veggie formulations, then there is no replacement for palm, period.

You can, of course, still make palm-free soaps. You can resort to stearic oils like tropical butters instead of palmitic, but this is an expensive kludge rather than a replacement.

If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.

The point is not to stop using palm oil. The point is not to over-use it and to manage production in a sustainable fashion. Overusing it means stuff like cooking oil when obviously there are countless options for that.

But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.

Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...

There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.

So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.

Would you mind sharing the sources for the info? I would really appreciate it as it differs immensely from the research I've done, particularly since many sources state that palm use/consumption will or already has outpaced production....and all the economic and environmental consequences of that info.

Use of crafters using palm is increasing greatly; especially now that palm wax is gaining popularity with chandlers.

Personally, I won't use palm until the RSPO has a much better success rate at ensuring what is certified RSPO, actually is sustainably produced. I think it will take many more years before they have the money and workforce to accomplish what they've set out to do.

I look forward to the work in west Africa; where people are trying to establish sustainable palm farms. I think once ebola becomes preventable, west Africa could be a major supplier of palm.

Curiously enough, when I started soaping about 18 months ago, I intended on using only organic and food quality ingredients. My view has changed greatly to the point where I now cringe at using "food" to make soap....including salt (especially dead sea salt) and olive oil. I now happily use lard and tallow and while it is "food", it is largely a waste product and plenty of it is thrown into the landfills. At first I had a difficult time giving it up, but quickly found lard and tallow add more to soap than palm.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Curiously enough, when I started soaping about 18 months ago, I intended on using only organic and food quality ingredients. My view has changed greatly to the point where I now cringe at using "food" to make soap....including salt (especially dead sea salt) and olive oil. I now happily use lard and tallow and while it is "food", it is largely a waste product and plenty of it is thrown into the landfills. At first I had a difficult time giving it up, but quickly found lard and tallow add more to soap than palm.

Similar here. I am especially interested in that you don't use olive oil. Is that correct? The reason I ask is that I VERY rarely will see soap anywhere that doesn't have olive oil so I have it in my brain that it is just what you use. I am finding, however, that I am very sensitive to the smell of it and can smell it through fragrance oil (and I use light olive oil too - a much milder scent than most!) and am wondering what you use in place of it?

I really want to use lard, but am having a hard time wrapping my head around it, which is silly, I know, as I eat meat. I have used it once and it was awesome.

 

[kchaystack]

Here are some articles that helped me decide how I would use palm.

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...s-you-need-to-know-about-sustainable-palm-oil

http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/saving_the_natural_world/forests/palm_oil/

http://blog.conservation.org/2014/04/why-palm-oil-isnt-the-enemy/


US consumption of palm oil in 2013 (this is the latest data I could find): Page 10 has the infographic, US uses about 2% of world wide production

http://assets.panda.org/downloads/po_scorecard_2013_latest.pdf

The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful, is that they can not do more without you. They need your support, and your pressure to keep making progress.

 

[kchaystack]

I really want to use lard, but am having a hard time wrapping my head around it, which is silly, I know, as I eat meat. I have used it once and it was awesome.

This might help. Once you have turned the lard into soap, it is not lard anymore. The amount of lard that is left over in your SF is less that you get on your hands when you make a pork chop!

 

[lenarenee]

If you are determined to use lard, you may just need to give yourself time to get used to the idea, that's all. It took me a year to get over palm despite knowing I didn't want to contribute to the global need for it. (I've used about 50 lbs of lard since November, and saved the need for 50 lbs of palm)

(To all SMF members and readers; this is not an attempt to guilt trip anyone who uses palm. I answer to my own need to not actively contribute to increasing the threat to many endangered creatures.)

As for Olive oil - I just don't like it in soap. For one reason - most supplies of olive oil are adulterated. In the beginning I bought cheap Wal Mart oo, and in a year, those bars (used 30% oo) developed dos. Then I started buying the oo that was tested and proven to be 100% pure oo. No dos, but I found the higher the percentage of oo used, the longer it took for the bar to cure and become the best it could be.

Also, knowing that olive oil is a very healthy choice for food use (except cooking), coupled with the fact that it has a limited supply and often subject the the whims of weather, I decided I'd rather save it for human consumption.

I'm happy to replace it with high oleic safflower oil, which I think makes a silkier lather. However, I'd like it to be even silkier, so that could change. Haven't tried sunflower oil yet because I haven't found it locally.

I like avocado oil, but live here in drought stricken California. Avocado and its oil should be saved for food, especially since it takes a lot of water to farm them.

I've played with rice bran oil, and liked it....but can no longer find it locally.

My current favorite recipe is a mix of tallow/lard, 10% safflower, 5 % castor.

 

[Susie]

I used palm a couple of times. I just really did not care for the soap. I have since become aware of the problems surrounding the growing of it. I am not here to beat a drum for any organizations, however, I am dealing with it in my own way. I don't buy bread or many other foods that contain palm oil. I am really careful to know what is in most of what I eat and use due to allergies, so reading labels is already a well established habit. I don't use palm oil in soap. I just try to avoid it. Just one person trying to not make a problem worse in a very quiet way.

I like lard. I know if it were not for folks buying it, it would be tossed in landfills, as it is not the reason that the hogs are being raised. Tallow makes sense for that reason also. I also happen to think that lard is the best thing that ever happened to soap.(my tallow soaps are not cured yet)

 

[valerieinthegallery]

This might help. Once you have turned the lard into soap, it is not lard anymore. The amount of lard that is left over in your SF is less that you get on your hands when you make a pork chop!

And actually, probably less, as I do HP and I cook it with only a 0.5 - 1.0% superfat and then add some shea butter after the cook to superfat it.

I don't find using it gross or anything - it's more about wondering if I am participating in the animal cruelty that happens in factory farms, as I'm not sure that I would want try to find local lard to render, etc.

Lots to think about! I love hearing everyone's thoughts!

 

[valerieinthegallery]

If you are determined to use lard, you may just need to give yourself time to get used to the idea, that's all. It took me a year to get over palm despite knowing I didn't want to contribute to the global need for it. (I've used about 50 lbs of lard since November, and saved the need for 50 lbs of palm)

(To all SMF members and readers; this is not an attempt to guilt trip anyone who uses palm. I answer to my own need to not actively contribute to increasing the threat to many endangered creatures.)

As for Olive oil - I just don't like it in soap. For one reason - most supplies of olive oil are adulterated. In the beginning I bought cheap Wal Mart oo, and in a year, those bars (used 30% oo) developed dos. Then I started buying the oo that was tested and proven to be 100% pure oo. No dos, but I found the higher the percentage of oo used, the longer it took for the bar to cure and become the best it could be.

Also, knowing that olive oil is a very healthy choice for food use (except cooking), coupled with the fact that it has a limited supply and often subject the the whims of weather, I decided I'd rather save it for human consumption.

I'm happy to replace it with high oleic safflower oil, which I think makes a silkier lather. However, I'd like it to be even silkier, so that could change. Haven't tried sunflower oil yet because I haven't found it locally.

I like avocado oil, but live here in drought stricken California. Avocado and its oil should be saved for food, especially since it takes a lot of water to farm them.

I've played with rice bran oil, and liked it....but can no longer find it locally.

My current favorite recipe is a mix of tallow/lard, 10% safflower, 5 % castor.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was wondering about sunflower oil as a substitute because I can get it locally at a great price and it has no smell whatsoever, that I can discern anyway.

 

[lenarenee]

Here are some articles that helped me decide how I would use palm.

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...s-you-need-to-know-about-sustainable-palm-oil

http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/saving_the_natural_world/forests/palm_oil/

http://blog.conservation.org/2014/04/why-palm-oil-isnt-the-enemy/


US consumption of palm oil in 2013 (this is the latest data I could find): Page 10 has the infographic, US uses about 2% of world wide production

http://assets.panda.org/downloads/po_scorecard_2013_latest.pdf

The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful, is that they can not do more without you. They need your support, and your pressure to keep making progress.

Thank you for the information; I'll read those soon.

The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful, is that they can not do more without you. They need your support, and your pressure to keep making progress.[/QUOTE]

^This...yes I can understand that. However, in the meantime, those RSPO dollars are also supporting "fraudulent" palm. While the RSPO has many farmers signed into sustainability practices, there's only a tiny percentage of those that are monitored by the RSPO (lack of funds/workers). In other words; while RSPO palm is certified as sustainable, only a tiny percentage is actually monitored and proven sustainable. The majority of RSPO palm only has the farmers' promise that it is sustainable.

(Given the conditions many of these farmers live in, should the need arise to fudge on their promise in order to feed their families, I suspect they would do whatever was necessary. And I certainly don't criticize them for doing so. If it came down to basic survival, I would choose to feed my children and not worry so much about the long term survival of animal/insect world. )

This is why I have a hard time buying palm. And its why I really hope palm farming takes off in west Africa; it has the potential to be a game changer in so many ways.

 

[lenarenee]

And actually, probably less, as I do HP and I cook it with only a 0.5 - 1.0% superfat and then add some shea butter after the cook to superfat it.

I don't find using it gross or anything - it's more about wondering if I am participating in the animal cruelty that happens in factory farms, as I'm not sure that I would want try to find local lard to render, etc.

Lots to think about! I love hearing everyone's thoughts!

As a farmer's daughter who lived the Charlotte's Web scenario, this concerns me too. Until my father cooperated, I insisted on being at the birth of every single pig possible so I could grab up the runt (not to be indelicate, but there was a hatchet in the barn for a reason) There was no need to kill any runts when I was willing to hand raise them until strong enough to return to the farm.
I made sure he promised that none of my food came from the piggies I raised.

Anyway, for now my thinking is: in the US there aren't going to be any changes in the slaughterhouse any time soon. And the animals will still be processed. I can't stop that. I eat meat. I eat less than I used to and try to buy humanely raised.

But I can choose to not increase the need for palm - thereby increasing the need to destroy more habitat. As I said earlier, if we haven't reached the edge already, the demand for palm will very soon exceed production. And it will not be my soap or groceries that took it over the edge.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

As a farmer's daughter who lived the Charlotte's Web scenario, this concerns me too. Until my father cooperated, I insisted on being at the birth of every single pig possible so I could grab up the runt (not to be indelicate, but there was a hatchet in the barn for a reason) There was no need to kill any runts when I was willing to hand raise them until strong enough to return to the farm.
I made sure he promised that none of my food came from the piggies I raised.

Anyway, for now my thinking is: in the US there aren't going to be any changes in the slaughterhouse any time soon. And the animals will still be processed. I can't stop that. I eat meat. I eat less than I used to and try to buy humanely raised.

But I can choose to not increase the need for palm - thereby increasing the need to destroy more habitat. As I said earlier, if we haven't reached the edge already, the demand for palm will very soon exceed production. And it will not be my soap or groceries that took it over the edge.

You sound like a lovely person and I am glad your father honored that part of you growing up! Funny, I was just talking about Charlotte's Web/E.B. White the other day with my daughter when we were trying to think of well-known people who were from Maine.

So.. this brings up other questions for me, but I think it would be best suited as a new thread - I don't want to veer off-course too much.

Thank you so much for your candor! Lots to chew on.

 

[Susie]

I have to say, though, that there is true irony in the increasing US demand for palm oil being caused by the vegans, vegetarians, and other "crunchy" types.