Neutral Soap Powder

[Lion Of Judah]

Hi all :

i was wondering if anyone ever heard of " Neutral Soap Powder"? or does anyone know of brand names. i can't seem to find any product names.

 

[DeeAnna]

Well, google is telling me a bunch of things:

"Neutral Washing Powder" is a brand of soap for washing clothes from the Netherlands: http://www.holland-at-home.com/en/neutral-washing-powder-white.html

Ask.com says a neutral detergent is "...a powerful, low-foaming and non-ionic detergent that is used for speedy and effective removal of biological materials from susceptible clinical surfaces and instruments, prior to disinfection or sterilisation...."

Confusingly, the GSA of the US government says a "neutral detergent" is an anionic, soapless detergent (http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/113006)

A "neutral soap" according to a 1893 formulary for druggists is a liquid soap that is made by a special process to ensure the . An olive oil soap is made with an excess of NaOH, then the soap is decomposed into its fatty acids by sulfuric acid, the fatty acids are washed with water until they are pH neutral, then the acids are saponified again with KOH to make a liquid soap. The soap is diluted with glycerine to reduce its thickness. The soap is transparent, soluble in water and alcohol, and resembles honey. The book is available here: https://archive.org/details/eraformulary50detr and the soap info is on page 304.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

thanks DeeAnna , those were the same things that i keep getting in google search but nothing more concise in the way of a product. i'm still trying to get a reply from the site that carried the article .

 

[engblom]

Here is the text DeeAnna linked too:

3637. Neutral Liquid Soap.
This is meant to be an absolutely neutral potash soap, but as complete saponification is brought about only by excess of alkali, which in the case of potash cannot subsequently be salted out or removed in any other manner, a special procedure is necessary. A soda soap is first made from pure olive oil and decomposed by dilute sulphuric acid. The fatty acids thus obtained are washed with distilled water until the latter runs off entirely neutral. These acids are then saponified with caustic potash so that a complete neutral soap results, and in order to prevent its thickening pure glycerine is added. Such soap is transparent, soluble in water and alcohol and resembles honey. It is perfectly neutral, specific gravity 1.05. This may be perfumed for the toilet.

One interesting thing is that they say you need excess of lye for full reaction. I am thinking about the strange recipe in the mega-long thread we have had here the latest time.

Here are some things I react upon and I wish I could get an answer to:

1. Why could not the excess of alkali be salted out?
2. After they added the acid, how exactly did they wash fatty acids? Will everything they want float up to the surface automatically?
3. How strong acid do you need for breaking up the soap? Will citric acid work? I understand it needs to be much stronger than the fatty acids, as you want to create a new salt binding the KOH.
4. Why is the new soap getting thicker all the time if you do not add glycerine? I know this is the case from my experiment with pure stearic acid. The soap was more solid than liquid with even 10l of water added if you had 50g of stearic acid from the beginning. It was impossible to pour it out from the sauce pan.

 

[DeeAnna]

** Why could not the excess of alkali be salted out?

Because a potassium soap is more soluble in water or salt brine than the sodium soaps you have experimented with. A potassium soap will not "grain out". Read the old soapmaking books for confirmation or try it yourself.

** After they added the acid, how exactly did they wash fatty acids? Will everything they want float up to the surface automatically?

"...The fatty acids thus obtained are washed with distilled water until the latter runs off entirely neutral...." Oleic acid probably does float, but it doesn't matter much. Just drain off the water however it is convenient for the person making the soap. Remember, this is from an 1800s formulary for pharmacists/chemists. They would be working in a general laboratory setting and might not handle things the way a soapmaker might. It's not that big for a deal to a chemist to decant a liquid off the surface vs. drain with a separatory funnel.

** How strong acid do you need for breaking up the soap? Will citric acid work? I understand it needs to be much stronger than the fatty acids, as you want to create a new salt binding the KOH.

No, you are not creating a salt, you are creating an acid from the sodium soap. The K+ is not "bound". It will be in solution, not in a salt form. The acid for decomposing the sodium soap needs to be in a dilute solution, but the acid needs to be a strong acid to drive the reaction. I believe citric is considered a weak acid, but try it and see if it works.

** Why is the new soap getting thicker all the time if you do not add glycerine?

Again, remember this is a recipe for pharmaceutical use, not for general purpose use. A pharmacist/chemist cannot mix ingredients into a firm or solid soap. He would need a soft soap product in order to compound a medical product. A sodium soap of oleic acid will have a "snotty" texture in plain water like any other sodium soap, so the maker would not want to use water to thin out the soap. Glycerin doesn't evaporate and gets around the snotty texture issue.

** I know this is the case from my experiment with pure stearic acid. The soap was more solid than liquid with even 10l of water added if you had 50g of stearic acid from the beginning. It was impossible to pour it out from the sauce pan.

You are comparing apples and oranges -- don't assume your experience with getting a sodium-stearic soap into solution has any bearing on the behavior of sodium soap made from any other fatty acid, especially the unsaturated FA's. A sodium-stearic soap does indeed require a huge amount of water to solubilize. Sodium-oleic soap requires much, much less water to go into solution.

 

[engblom]

Because a potassium soap is more soluble in water or salt brine than the sodium soaps you have experimented with. A potassium soap will not "grain out". Read the old soapmaking books for confirmation or try it yourself.

One of my first salted out soaps was actually a potassium soap. I boiled it with excess of lye (KOH). Then I added normal salt (NaCl) to saturate the solution. It did separate nicely and after 4 washes, I had a firm Castile to dry. I still have left of those bars.

The soap I am most of the time making is liquid Castile (several buckets), and the salted out was definitely not like the soap paste you get from normal potassium soap.

If the soap is anyway going to be broken down for separating the fatty acids, I still do not understand why it could not be salted out.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...One of my first salted out soaps was actually a potassium soap. I boiled it with excess of lye (KOH). Then I added normal salt (NaCl) to saturate the solution. It did separate nicely and after 4 washes, I had a firm Castile to dry...."

By salting out that potassium soap, you ended up with a blend of sodium and potassium soaps in your final product. The recipe in the formulary is different. It will make a chemically neutral 100% KOH soap.

edit: I apologize, Janeau, that this thread has digressed from the subject of your original post. I am still curious about your question -- can you give a link to the article you have in mind? It might offer some clues to solve the mystery.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

DeeAnna you need not apologize in the slightest , it is all so educational....above my head but educational . and i appreciate your thoroughness in your research and in your reply's . this is the link i got the recipe from "HOMEMADE TOOTHPASTE" section : http://ecogreenlove.wordpress.com/2...uthwash-via-myhealthlist-and-motherearthnews/

as of this date i have not seen nor gotten a reply about it.
the discussion you and engblom was having reminded me of a salt brine technique that is used to make glycerin where once you do your CP you mix in a salt brine solution and put it in the mold come morning it separates with soap curds on top and glycerin underneath .

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, that is pretty much the process Engblom is using.

Moving back to your question, I am nearly certain the toothpaste recipe is an adaptation of an old one from the mid 1800s or early 1900s. I get the feeling the author might not have done his/her research thoroughly enough and dropped the ball on translating "neutral soap" into modern day terms.

What is meant by "neutral soap" in this context would be a mild, well cured soap that has no flavor of its own. Back in the day, many soaps were slightly lye heavy and often made from rather unsavory types of fat. One paid extra for a well made "neutral" soap that was suitable and pleasant for the toilet and bath. Today, "neutral" soap in this sense is the rule, rather than the exception.

A pure olive oil soap is classic for this purpose, based on what I'm seeing in the old books, but a 100% tallow soap was also used for tooth recipes. Most modern tooth-soap users avoid soap with any amount of coconut oil in it, because CO soap has an objectionable taste. You might already have a suitable "neutral soap" in your stash!

Here's one source with a number of recipes similar to yours: A Practical Treatise on the Manufacture of Perfumery. C. Diete, author. W Brannt, translator. 1892. Chapter 11 covers Dentifrices, mouth-waters, tooth pastes, tooth powders, etc. Source: internetarchive.org

Here are some quotes from this book that seem to relate to your question. I added the comments in brackets [ ].

"...In accordance with recent medical directions and opinions, soap is again employed, and justly so, for the better cleansing of the teeth, whilst formerly it was generally considered injurious. However, though soap is innocuous to the teeth, it should be used in very limited quantities, since its introduction into the mouth is repugnant to many persons, producing in many cases vomiting. The quality of the soap must also be taken into consideration, and only the best neutral soap in the form of a powder, such as is used for fine milled soaps, should be employed...."

"...Odontine paste. —French chalk [aka calcium carbonate] 30 drachms, soap 15, sugar 15, gum-arabic 2, peppermint oil 2, glycerin 8, water 8. Work into a paste...." [All the units in this recipe are drachms. 1 drachm = 4.37 grams]

"...Tooth-soap. —Castile soap 1 lb., prepared chalk 1 oz., thymol 20 grains, oil of wintergreen 30 drops. Shave the soap into ribbons, beat it into a paste with a little water, and add first the prepared chalk and lastly the thymol and wintergreen oil dissolved in a little water...." [1 grain = 0.065 grams]

 

[Lion Of Judah]

thank you DeeAnna , very much, you may not see it but i am smiling. i very much enjoy the additional recipes that you put up that broaden my concept of what "homemade " toothpaste should be.
i may just have to boil down and make me soap just to turn into toothpaste..... once cured , grate it down , let it dry out some, and run it through the blender and insert it into those recipes along with the additional ingredients. would it be a good thought to keep SF at 5% or go lower.

 

[DeeAnna]

I think many folks are using and 80% palm or lard and 20% cocoa butter blend for tooth soap. Not to say some other blend would be fine too -- the only no-no is the coconut oil due to the taste. I normally superfat about 5%, and it's my opinion that this SF would be fine for a tooth soap.

I'm glad I could help with ideas! There are a bunch more recipes in that Perfumery book that you might be interested in -- and several that don't sound safe or very appealing. I enjoy the old books; they offer a lot of insight into soapmaking and history. A lot of things that many people think is new and daring today ... is just a variation on a theme from 100 years ago!

I'm not sure about a source of powdered calcium carbonate, but I was wondering about a calcium antacid like Tums -- I believe Tums has a calcium carbonate base. Something to think about if you need to improvise.....

 

[Lion Of Judah]

you are so right about what is old is new again with variations . the old books are great , as a matter of fact i have an old one somewhere saved in my book-markers . in my opinion [ just mine ] the homemaker of old had a lot of homemaking ingenuity and know-how through the mother of all invention "necessity". today we are so caught up in a disposable life style and relying on a store to get the simplest of things.
i do not use animal products like tallow, lard, but my mind has been set in motion. there are a few other oils that are ideal for this project.... neem being one and anise oil the other. both can be used after the soap is made to boost the final product. i figure a nice bar made from OO - CsO - Babassau / or PKO... something along the line of a creamy lather that can help reduce abrasions to the enamel .
now i got something to do leading up to the summertime , making a ideal (for me) soap powder i will be sure to let you know what i come up with TYM = "thank you much"

 

[engblom]

As I anyway have a lot of liquid Castile at home (made with KOH) I decided to test it with citric acid solution. I can now confirm citric acid works well for separating out the fatty acids.

I have now floating on top of clean water fatty acids. Those fatty acids I could make into a tooth-soap not having any glycerin. The fatty acids from Olive Oil seem to be floating and they are definitely not dissolving into water.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

engblom what is left behind below the floating fatty acids ? glycerin? and what is the ph level of the fatty acids ?

 

[engblom]

engblom what is left behind below the floating fatty acids ? glycerin? and what is the ph level of the fatty acids ?

I changed water several times. The glycerin (together with the citric acid) should have gone during the water changes. The pH of the liquid under the fatty acids was in the end around 7 (according to my pH paper), so it is pure water. It is not possible to directly measure the pH of the fatty acids, but that is not needed either. If one would really want to do that, one would need to mix alcohol and water to disolve the fatty acids.

When one is having the fatty acids, it is just to add lye again to saponify them.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

that is the beauty of soap making , all the science behind of it. so is the fatty acid that is left behind a pure[r] and milder soap? would the fatty acid re-saponify a second time?

 

[DeeAnna]

No, a fatty acid is a fatty acid, not soap. You would need to saponify it to get a usable soap.

The whole point of saponifying the oil, breaking the soap down with acid into fatty acids, then saponifying the fatty acids back into soap is to get a final product that is as pure of a soap as possible. No excess alkalinity, no excess fat (superfat), no glycerine ... nothing but soap.

After the first saponification, the soap at that point will have either an excess of lye or an excess of fat, depending on how it's made. The recipe calls for an excess of lye. The reason for the lye excess is all about water solubility. When the soap is broken down with acid, you want to be able to wash away the impurities with water, leaving just the fatty acids behind. If the soap was made with an excess of fat, the fat cannot be easily washed out of the fatty acid with water alone.

The final soap will be pure, yes, but whether it is mild or not depends on the fatty acids. In this case, olive oil is used as the base fat. The resulting purified soap would be mostly oleic soap with some palmitic and linoleic soaps. It would be mild.