Need for Emulsifiers and Preservatives

[seaWA]

Okay, I've read a million websites, but only spent a couple of months making my own potions: no soap yet--so far lip balm and body butter. The body butter (it's usually shea-coconut or shea-coconut-palm kernel oil...next up I want to put in some olive oil) I actually use on my face, too--it's very shiny, but if I use my towel to blot my face after a minute or two (of letting it sink in), then no shine, and lots of good moisture and soft skin.

I'd love something creamier and less greasy in texture, I think, but that would require water, wouldn't it (and therefore an emulsifier)? So that makes me wonder....is the water really adding anything, given that I put this on straight out of the shower anyway (so I'm still damp)? Why DO we add water to lotions/creams? I have some liquid lecithin I can play with, but I'm just not sure what I'm gaining and losing by adding the water.

Can I get that creamy texture just from adding almond oil or olive oil, instead of water?

I've also read that water (even distilled or boiled) adds to the risk of bacterial contamination--is this true? I haven't had to use preservatives yet, because I make small batches, use oils strongly resistant to rancidity, and (again) really only put it on straight out of the shower (so the bacteria my hands are adding is minimized, though certainly not nothing). I'd like to continue not to use preservatives.

Along the same lines, my lip balm came out terrific right away (it's the recipe all over the web: 40% liquid oil, 25% solid oil, 20% beeswax, and 15% brittle oil), but that doesn't have any preservative either, and I put my dirty fingers in it a million times a day--why wouldn't that get nasty?

I guess partly what I'm asking is, is it mostly water I have to worry about (in terms of bacterial/fungal growth), or mostly my own hands? And wouldn't tea tree oil and/or honey and/or other natural antifungals/antibacterials do the trick, if I'm only needing these things to last at most a few months (for gifts)? I'm trying to make the simplest possible natural creams/lotions, while still hoping for a nice texture.

 

[dagmar88]

Bacteria and fungi need water to grow; so as long as there isn't any water in your recipes and you won't be introducing moisture to the final product (like an opened jar of body butter sitting in your damp bathroom), you don't need a preservative.
All products that do contain water need a good broad spectrum preservative like optiphen or phenonip. Tea tree, honey, grape seed exract and other 'natural' things don't to the trick.

Water and emulsifiers are added for texture and a less greasy dry down. Without water and emulsifiers, it's not a cream and any recipe with just oils and butters won't have that creamy feel.

You could try to make whipped shea butter...

 

[seaWA]

Thanks--that's helpful; it explains why the lip balm is okay without preservatives (and the body butter), though a cream wouldn't be. I think I'll just live with the temporary greasiness, since it makes it so much simpler and is still nice on my skin...I have indeed whipped the shea butter (with coconut oil), which is nice, and next time I might try to soften it further w/ the olive oil.

If I decide to try for a creamier texture (i.e. with water), do you think I'd need a preservative even if I plan to use it in a month or two? I've come across lots of recipes without them (at the moment I'm looking at this one: http://fimby.tougas.net/homemade-moistu ... ion-winter which has the beeswax/borax emulsifying combo). I guess I figure if it's icky enough to not use, I'll be able to tell.....

Thanks again.

 

[dagmar88]

I *think* whipped shea's usually 75% shea and 25% liquid oils.
You could add dry-flo or corn startch to make it feel slightly less greasy.

That recipe contains GSE : http://www.terressentials.com/truthaboutgse.html

I'd personally rather use BTMS or E-wax instead of beeswax and borax; they're both more stable and milder.

By the time your cream looks/smells/feels icky; you're already way too late... :wink:
I wouldn't use a cream without preservatives that has been in the fridge for more than a couple of days or so.

Preservatives aren't scary; giving stuff away that could contain all sorts of nasties is :wink:

 

[seaWA]

Interesting....I actually wasn't going to use the GSE--I'd already read that it wasn't useful, so I was just going to do without. I have a whole book (Ecobeauty) of recipes without preservatives, too, though (one that I wanted to try, for example, is just boiling water, 1/8 t borax, 1/2 c almond oil, and shea butter). I'm not rigid about it (I've used commercial lotions all my life without apparent ill effect), but I also just wonder...what harm would it do? You say "way too late", but for what?

I just doubt it's likely to hurt me, even if there's some bacteria in it. Using preservatives in a lotion that's going to be used up quickly just seems kind of like antibacterial soap--probably overkill, and full of stuff that's not time-tested in its effects.

 

[krissy]

you could try this...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8VYLtP4_w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8VYLtP4_w[/ame]

 

[seaWA]

interesting, thanks. I never thought of using alcohol, though that seems to have its own issues. again, though, Snowdrift makes it clear they're going for a year-long shelf life. If I'm satisfied by a month or two, I'm still not sure I'd need it. I'd love to see something that told me both what was growing after a month, and whether it was harmful. it might be like the bacteria on sponges, or the dust-mite-corpses on pillows--gross to know about in detail, but (for most of us) a pretty harmless fact of life.

thoughts?

 

[seaWA]

Just looked up optiphen and phenonip...the latter I wouldn't use, because of the parabens, and the optiphen seems to be essentially a variant of ethanol....so perhaps the perfumer's alcohol that Snowdrift has, or the everclear that a few other sites mention, is a good way to go if one IS concerned about shelf life. I love the cosmeticsdatabase.com, but its usefulness is somewhat limited--for example, they refer to the cancer risk of ethanol, but it's because of the known dangers of DRINKING alcohol, it's not because of actual known dangers of putting it on your skin.

 

[soapbuddy]

I like this web site better for truth than the cosmetcidatabase.
http://personalcaretruth.com/

 

[Lindy]

Lotions and creams made with water, aloe vera extract, etc need preservatives. Just because you can't see the nasties doesn't mean they're aren't there - it would be like licking a toilet handle - it's shiny and looks clean but it can make you sick.

I use corn starch to cut the greasiness of my body butters.....

 

[seaWA]

Since I'm not going to eat the lotion, I guess I think it would be more like TOUCHING the toilet handle to my skin, which I do all the time (though I grant you I wash my hands afterwards). Seriously, though, I'm not saying there's nothing harmful in a lotion after a month or two, I'm just wondering what it IS, and what it DOES to us. Bacteria are everywhere (95% of the cells in our bodies, in fact, are bacteria, not "us"), and most of them are not remotely harmful.

 

[soapbuddy]

Here are some links to think about.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/09/27/n ... -to-avoid/
http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/04/25/7 ... cosmetics/

 

[Lindy]

Unpreserved lotions start to grow "stuff" immediately. This is a leave-on product which means that your skin can and does absorb 40% of what you leave on it. Since it's only for you then you can do whatever you want, actually even if you were selling if people don't know better than to buy an unprotected product then you can still do what you want.

It's obvious that you are new to this and there are a lot of people trying to impress upon you the importance of doing it right as well as knowing what you're doing. Totally up to you if you want to learn or not...

Cheers

 

[soapbuddy]

If this lotion is just for you, then you do whatever...

If this is for sale, your liability insurance is NOT going to cover you if you do NOT use a preservative system for bath & body products you are selling. People are sue happy. You could loose your home and any belongings. Are you willing to take that chance?

PS. Germs, mold and bacteria will exponentially multiply in a moist environment like a cream or a lotion, even in the fridge. Just because it looks ok and smells ok, it might not be ok.

 

[dagmar88]

interesting, thanks. I never thought of using alcohol, though that seems to have its own issues. again, though, Snowdrift makes it clear they're going for a year-long shelf life. If I'm satisfied by a month or two, I'm still not sure I'd need it. I'd love to see something that told me both what was growing after a month, and whether it was harmful. it might be like the bacteria on sponges, or the dust-mite-corpses on pillows--gross to know about in detail, but (for most of us) a pretty harmless fact of life.

thoughts?

Do you REALLY want to know?

Fungi

Fungi are a unique group of organisms that have some plantlike characteristics. Examples of fungi include mushrooms, mold, and yeast. Fungi differ from plants, however, in two major ways: (1) their cell walls are made of chitin, rather than cellulose, and (2) they lack the ability to make their own food by photosynthesis; thus they grow directly on their food source. This food source can be the human skin.

Some fungi are simple one-celled organisms. Others are relatively complex, exhibiting specialized cell functions. They grow in soil, on living and dead plants and trees, as well as on animals and humans. The reproductive cell, or spore, of a fungus can be spread by direct contact, air, and water.

Deep fungal infections invade deeper layers of the skin and hair follicles and can spread to the blood or internal organs.

http://www.dermatologychannel.net/funga ... ndex.shtml

Go to images.google.com and search for fungal infections of the skin. Once had one, God knows where it came from, on my entire torso and legs.
That did not look pretty and took two months to get rid off. Couldn't even hold the newborn babies of two befriended couples cause I was highly contagious.

Same goes for bacterial infections like for example (bacterial) conjunctivitis, or pink eye.


Some more info (containing pics of fungal and bacterial growth in unpreserved lotion after three days) : http://personalcaretruth.com/2010/06/wh ... ervatives/

 

[Hazel]

Fungal infections are horrible! I've had them twice and I've no idea how I got them. (Although I can confidently say it wasn't from anything I made ) I had to go to the doctor to get a prescription strength cream to clear them up because the OTC creams didn't help.

 

[seaWA]

Thanks to all. I didn't realize that even asking the question would bother people. It's not that I think that natural products are necessarily safe (though I think it's quite unlikely I would have used frog toxins in my lotion, so I think that beautybrains link sets up some very strange straw men to prove an obvious point) and man-made ones necessarily dangerous, it's just that it seems obvious to me that as with food, the needs of someone who wants to make tens of thousands of something, store it for a year or two, and sell it at a profit, are different from the needs of someone who's going to make something fresh and hang onto it for a month or so....this is even kind of the the indirect point of the other beautybrains link, when it says natural preservatives don't work "as well"--because I don't need something to work as well, I just need it to work enough to be safe. In GENERAL I think our society is dangerously ridiculous about bacteria (which cover our bodies no matter if we sit in boiling water, in addition to making up the vast majority of cells within us), so I just wanted some more information to develop a SPECIFIC idea about lotionmaking. I still don't really have it--fungi may feed on our skin, but so do a million other things (microscopic bugs, bacteria, etc.) that we need in order to survive--just because something is a creepy idea doesn't make it a dangerous fact. I'm willing to believe that extra, new fungi found in creams are a very bad idea for broken skin, for example....I just wish I knew a proper way to balance these concerns: how dangerous they really are, with how likely they really are, and whether it's possible to avoid them in other ways (choice of oils, refrigeration, or whatever), etc.

And that, unfortunately, is what I still don't have, so I'll mostly stick to the anhydrous body butters, for now, and maybe try an alcohol preservative for some lotion occasionally.

As for the validity of personalcaretruth.com.....as Upton Sinclair said, it's difficult to get a man to understand something if his paycheck depends on his not understanding it; industry scientists have biases like anybody else. The Environmental Working Group site may not be perfect, but they're not relying on industry studies (or their own), so for the moment I'm still inclined to think their biases are a lot more trustworthy.

 

[dagmar88]

I don't think it's your question that bothers people, it is your reluctant additude towards their well ment advises.

 

[PrairieCraft]

It sounds like you are determined to disregard the good information you are getting here. So why bother asking? I'm pretty sure you aren't going to convince anyone to tell you that you don't need a preservative.

The fact that we are covered in naturally occurring bacteria doesn't change the fact that you will be making something that does not occur naturally and putting it on your skin which also doesn't happen naturally. So the lotion isn't natural and putting it on your skin isn't natural, even if you don't use a preservative.

I don't think your question has bothered people, it's more likely your reaction to all of the answers you have gotten.

If you really want to be totally natural, I wouldn't use any lotion at all. It can clog your pores, your body will absorb any fragrance you put into, the oils you will use are being shipped to you from a far away land using very unnatural means....I could go on.

 

[seaWA]

Dagmar, I am indeed reluctant, but only to use something I'm not sure is necessary. I was hoping people could tell me when/why it was necessary in a noncommercial context, but no one has. I appreciate your replies in particular, since they seemed balanced & informative, so I'm sorry if I seemed unappreciative to you.

Prairiecraft: in what way is it crazy-extremist (as you imply, by joking that I'd be reluctant to even use lotion) to simply want to minimize the use of broad-spectrum antibacterials? The overuse of products like that is a big problem, and there are at least possible health concerns about them, which I'm not ready to dismiss. I'm NOT saying you're over-using them, or that I would be if I put them in my lotions, only that I'm still lacking in the same information I'd hoped to get from here. I've only gotten broad generalizations, and links to sites that seem highly biased and industry-funded.

Clearly, the bias on this site is towards using these things--that may well be justified, especially for anyone who's making things to sell. But I'm not, and I made that clear from the start. Unless I hear someone with a solid answer for why it might be dangerous for me not to use these products, I'm not going to use them, any more than I'm going to toss a bunch of preservatives into my dinner tonight before I feed my family or friends.....all things in their proper measure and context.