My first shaving soap is a success!

[DeeAnna]

"...What occurred when I added the lye was almost instant soap!..."

Uh, well, yeahhhhh.... With this type of recipe and this much stearic acid, it stands to reason that you should have gotten instant soap. It had nothing to do with where, when, or how you added the glycerin.

As far as the amount of time to cook, I second The Gent's point of view.

 

[RhondaJ]

"...What occurred when I added the lye was almost instant soap!..."

Uh, well, yeahhhhh.... With this type of recipe and this much stearic acid, it stands to reason that you should have gotten instant soap. It had nothing to do with where, when, or how you added the glycerin.

As far as the amount of time to cook, I second The Gent's point of view.

I'll admit, chemistry is not my thing. I get the basics and enough to understand when I read about it, but after reading thru this entire thread I expected a fast trace, then quite a bit of cook time similar to a standard HP soap. I was surprised by how fast it all went Then I added 2+2 and obviously came up with 6 lol I assumed that the glycerin was part of the speeding up since it does just that in liquid soap.

 

[LBussy]

I cook for 2 hrs because when I'm done it's done, the water is reduced, and it's still soft enough to mold before it cools. When it is cool it's fairly hard for a soft soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree that glycerin does speed trace in liquid soap, but we're typically using a lot more glycerin in LS in proportion to the lye. I've made this high stearic recipe both ways -- glycerin up front and glycerin after saponification. It traces very fast in either case due to the stearic acid.

The lye doesn't have to break down the stearic like it has to break down a "normal" fat, so saponification moves along very quickly. All the lye molecule has to do is waltz up to the fatty acid, push off a hydrogen, slap on a sodium, and ... whap! ... done! Happens within seconds.

Sometimes you'll even see this happen with a regular soap recipe. As oils age, they naturally have a higher % of fatty acids, even if they don't smell rancid. When soaping with these older fats, the lye will instantly react with the fatty acids, making trace happen much quicker than normal. Quite a surprise to the soaper who wonders what just happened.

 

[new12soap]

All the lye molecule has to do is waltz up to the fatty acid, push off a hydrogen, slap on a sodium, and ... whap! ... done!

I think this is my new favorite sentence.

 

[JustBeachy]

I cook for 2 hrs because when I'm done it's done, the water is reduced, and it's still soft enough to mold before it cools. When it is cool it's fairly hard for a soft soap.

Yeah I tried a longer cook on the one I made today and have to agree. Still malleable, yet reduced really nicely. I cooked mine for about 1.5 hours.

 

[RhondaJ]

I think this is my new favorite sentence.

LOL mine too! I had this whole cartoon lye bully image going on in my head when I read it!

 

[claudep]

DeeAnna, i thought the article was great, but to understand what it means, one has to look at how it was tested. I am truly grateful, has i had not seen it. Will sure help creating better formulation.

 

[Obsidian]

I finally got around to making a small batch of shaving soap using songwinds original recipe with a 5% coco butter addition for SF. I also added a bit of SL along with the glycerin.

I just poured it a few minutes ago but out of curiosity, I grabbed a brush and palm lathered a bit and wow, it was amazingly thick. I almost reminded me of divinity or marshmallow cream. I can't wait until I can try shaving with it.

I will add that the unscented soap smells unpleasant, like old melted candles. I wanted to leave a portion unscented but I just couldn't do it. One bowl is chocolate and the other is OMH. I use the plastic salsa bowls from the dollar store to pour the soap in. Perfect size for lathering and lightweight but they don't have lids.

 

[Jackofhearts]

So about a week ago I made the original recipe. The only change I made was to not scent it. I wanted to get the performance just right before introducing new variables. Well, I finally broke down and shaved with it tonight. It was by most accounts a great shave! My wife even commented that my face looked really good (I know, right?!)
The only things I would change are: 1) I would make it more moisturizing. It wasn't really drying per se but given that its cold and dry here I figure why not. My thoughts here is to include either cocoa butter or shea butter next time around. I don't know how these respond to HP especially given how warm it has to be for the stearic acid to be incorporated. and: 2) I want it to be slicker. As per the original recipe I used 1/2 lb of oil and included 1/5 tbsp of glycerin. It simply wasn't as slick as I would like it. My thoughts regarding that would be to either incorporate bentonite clay (I'm pretty sure this would add slickness but I'm not sure I want to have clay in it.) or I could simply add more glycerin. But, what I'm really wanting to try is to use a minority NaOH with a majority of KOH. I'm thinking that having some NaOH could cost me some latherability (this is by FAR the easiest to lather soap I've ever tried so losing some of it isn't worrying) but it could gain me some slickness. Also, it could firm up the soap a bit which would be kinda nice but not necessary.

Thoughts?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Obsidian]

I added the 5% coco butter SF in hope to make it a bit more moisturizing, not sure if it helped a whole lot but it doesn't seem to dry my skin. I only made a 5oz batch and added 1/2 tsp glycerin and it still wasn't as slick as I would like it but it did give a good shave and lathers easily. My regular shave soap is tallow based and its very, very slick but takes more work to get a good lather. You could try adding clay to a small portion, see if it helps.


I used only KoH but also added 1/2 tsp sodium lactate and my soap is quite firm. I would have been able to pour it in a mold and cut it. Oh, almost forgot that I used palm kernel oil instead of coconut since I was out of coconut, maybe that helped harden the soap too.

 

[JustBeachy]

The one I made last weekend has shea butter in it and clay. ( I can hear Craig groaning ). I also used 50% Coconut milk for the liquids. I tried it tonight and was quite pleased. Smooth, close shave and it left my face feeling clean and moisturized.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...1/5 tbsp of glycerin..."

I would say that is a bit on the light side. I add somewhere between 10% to 15% of glycerin by weight based on weight of oils.

 

[Jackofhearts]

Sorry that was supposed to be 1.5 not 1/5. I'm not a very good typist. 25g to be precise.

 

[DeeAnna]

Okay, that sounds much better. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jackofhearts]

I remember reading in my earlier soaping research (I'm still quite the newbie so I guess it's ALL early) that KOH creates shorter soap molecules or something which is why it's ideal for liquid soaps since it's more soluble; while NaOH tends to create longer molecules which tangle and make for a cohesive bar but a clumpy liquid soap. All this to say, in that reading (I'm sorry but I don't remember where) it was said that NaOH tends to create slicker lathers.
Could this create a slicker lather in my shaving soap? For those of you who have tried it, would you mind sharing with me your percentages?
I know I'm asking a lot, but if it helps I'm not planning on ever selling any shave soaps.

Also, according to my reading, I'm thinking that avocado oil would help. Is this true? I haven't been able to find much on avocado oil and what it brings to the party.

Thanks so much!!!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Could it also be your lathering? No offense, but often on shaving forums we see some people who can't get a decent lather from a certain soap while others can.

I used to really dislike my pure KOH soap......until I learnt how to lather it!

That said, I do think that the co is too high in this recipe. I will be trying it much lower in my next batches

 

[IrishLass]

Jackofhearts- if you have a look at the following thread, I think it will help to answer your question:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=clay


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

"...KOH creates shorter soap molecules or something which is why it's ideal for liquid soaps since it's more soluble; while NaOH tends to create longer molecules which tangle and make for a cohesive bar but a clumpy liquid soap..."

Hey, Jack -- I think this is rather a garbled mess of true facts and incorrect ideas. Thought I'd offer a bit about the science as I understand it --

True -- KOH soap is more water soluble and softer than NaOH soap, all other things being equal. That is simply due to the cation (say "cat-eye-on") that is stuck onto the fatty acid to make a soap molecule. A smaller "stronger" cation like sodium (Na) allows the soap molecules to pack tightly together so the finished soap can be in a hard, solid form.

False -- The molecules in a solid soap bar do not want to "tangle" together if they can avoid it. They would prefer to organize themselves into tidy structures -- often times they make lasagna-style layers called lamelae.

The exceptional ability of sodium soap molecules to organize themselves like this is one of the reasons why a sodium soap gets "ropy" or "snotty" when you add lots of water to make a "liquid soap". You can break up the layers of "snot" by a thorough stirring, but leave that liquidy sodium soap alone for awhile and those determined soap molecules will gradually sneak back into their preferred sheet structure.

A larger "softer" cation like potassium (K) is more forgiving, so potassium soap molecules are not bound together quite as tightly nor as neatly as is a sodium soap. A potassium soap does not have good organizational skills, so to speak. When water is added, the potassium soap molecules are freer to dissolve off the soap mass and go into water solution more easily.

False -- The cations (Na or K) do not control the length of the soap molecules. The fatty acids in the soap are the key to overall molecular length. For example, soap molecules made from coconut fatty acids are in general shorter than soap molecules made from tallow fatty acids.

Inconclusive -- As far as whether a sodium soap makes slicker lather than a potassium soap ... I can't say that for sure. I'm not getting a strong sense that this is true from what people are saying who are experimenting with different types of shave soap recipes. I'd say a mix of the two types of lyes might help to build a stable, dense lather, but the shaver's technique has as much or more influence on that.

 

[boyago]

Happy 500th post shaving soap thread!
I remember back when you were just a few pages long. And look at how much learning and collaboration your created! You've truely risen in ranks like the lather in our bowls. Before you came along I was perfectly content to shave with my bar soap and bargain razors (so in some ways you've ruined me).
Songwind, be proud! Your thread has grown to a thing of beauty.
Thanks to all of those who have contributed to this and taught me allot. I truly appreciate the experience.