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Lye Heavy Soap paste ???

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divyadinesh07

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I have made this formula about 10 times earlier with no problems but today This is my 2nd batch and except for change in the brand of oil that I buy there has been no changes in the formula.

Can anyone tell me what's wrong??

Yet the paste is very lye heavy.

Olive Oil= 972gm
Coconut Oil- 540gm
Shea -180
gm
Castor Oil= 108
gm
Liquid(water)= 1820gm
Lye-NaOH(57%)=207gm
KOH- 9gm(43%)= 156gm
Glycerin=90gm(added with lye solution)
 

Dorymae

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I have made this formula about 10 times earlier with no problems but today This is my 2nd batch and except for change in the brand of oil that I buy there has been no changes in the formula.

Can anyone tell me what's wrong??

Yet the paste is very lye heavy.

Olive Oil= 972gm
Coconut Oil- 540gm
Shea -180
gm
Castor Oil= 108
gm
Liquid(water)= 1820gm
Lye-NaOH(57%)=207gm
KOH- 9gm(43%)= 156gm
Glycerin=90gm(added with lye solution)
When you say this is lye heavy, you are doing a zap test right? You are not depending on drops or strips to test? Drops and strips are notoriously inaccurate for testing for lye heaviness, so I want to make sure you are not depending on them.
 

BrewerGeorge

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Some kind of measurement error, perhaps? Can you weigh the whole thing? That might tell you if something is far out of whack with the ingredients.
 

Susie

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Yes, that is lye heavy. I am not sure what you mean by "I have made this formula about 10 times earlier with no problems but today This is my 2nd batch and except for change in the brand of oil that I buy there has been no changes in the formula." But it shows as lye heavy on the calculator. What exactly are you trying to make?

However, if you add 328 g Olive Oil, it will bring it to 0% superfat. It won't be particularly nice to your skin, but it will no longer be lye heavy.

You really should use a lye calculator to get the correct amounts of NaOH and KOH before making soap. I recommend Soapee.com.
 

DeeAnna

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Not to say I'm always right on my calculations, but I'm coming up with these numbers --

Based on your 1800 g total fat, 57% NaOH, and the balance KOH, you should be using 147 g NaOH and 174 g KOH. This assumes 3% superfat (no neutralization required), 100% NaOH purity, and 90% KOH purity.

I can't figure out a situation where the calculations would give me 207 g NaOH and 156 g KOH for the weights and types of fats you listed. That's a fairly lye heavy recipe. How are you handling the calculation of the NaOH and KOH weights?

Also my recipe would call for a lot less water-phase liquid, assuming a 3:1 ratio of water phase liquid to lye. My calculations are showing only 864 g total water phase weight (that would be water + glycerin weight). Are you making the paste with this entire 1820 g water + 90 g glycerin? Or is some of this liquid being used for diluting the paste later on after the paste is finished?

I have no idea why your previous recipes didn't zap to high heaven -- what you're describing for this last batch is what I would expect, given the numbers I'm coming up with.

I would be taking Dorymae, Susie, and Brewer's advice -- looking into doing a zap test and looking for measuring errors as well as re-evaluating your recipe.
 
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divyadinesh07

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When you say this is lye heavy, you are doing a zap test right? You are not depending on drops or strips to test? Drops and strips are notoriously inaccurate for testing for lye heaviness, so I want to make sure you are not depending on them.
Yes I did a zap test and I literally burnt the tip of my tongue off!
 

divyadinesh07

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Not to say I'm always right on my calculations, but I'm coming up with these numbers --

Based on your 1800 g total fat, 57% NaOH, and the balance KOH, you should be using 147 g NaOH and 174 g KOH. This assumes 3% superfat (no neutralization required), 100% NaOH purity, and 90% KOH purity.

I can't figure out a situation where the calculations would give me 207 g NaOH and 156 g KOH for the weights and types of fats you listed. That's a fairly lye heavy recipe. How are you handling the calculation of the NaOH and KOH weights?

Also my recipe would call for a lot less water-phase liquid, assuming a 3:1 ratio of water phase liquid to lye. My calculations are showing only 864 g total water phase weight (that would be water + glycerin weight). Are you making the paste with this entire 1820 g water + 90 g glycerin? Or is some of this liquid being used for diluting the paste later on after the paste is finished?

I have no idea why your previous recipes didn't zap to high heaven -- what you're describing for this last batch is what I would expect, given the numbers I'm coming up with.

I would be taking Dorymae, Susie, and Brewer's advice -- looking into doing a zap test and looking for measuring errors as well as re-evaluating your recipe.
I use the SAPONIFY app to calculate the measures. For 100gm of these oils it recommended 21gm of KOH. But with my trial and error I homed in on the 57% NAOH & 43%KOH that forms a paste which when diluted gives me a gel consistency.

Shouldn't the NAOH be greater than KOH considering the 57:43 ratio?
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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Not necessarily- if you need 200g of KOH for the oils or 100g when using NaOH, you wouldn't use 100g of KOH and 100g of NaOH for a 50/50 split. Rather, you'd use 100g of KOH and 50g of NaOH. Your amounts need to be that percentage of the total amount of that particular lye as a 100% amount.

Not sure if that is making sense - I'm working from home and it's getting later here
 

Susie

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You need to add oil as I suggested above. Put the paste back on the heat, add about 30 g water (to start with), then 328 g Olive oil, and stir and cook until you no longer see oil floating on the water. You will have to do lots of mashing of the paste and breaking it up into small pieces, and you will most probably have to add more water, but keep at it, and it will eventually come together. Liquid soap paste is more forgiving that way.

Can you clarify how many times you have made this before? I am really confused.
 

DeeAnna

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Here's something I wrote awhile back about calculating the lye weights for a mixed lye soap:

Three molecules of KOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Three molecules of NaOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Sounds easy peasy, right? Just count out the right numbers of molecules and make your soap!

Oh, there's a catch -- we humans can't count molecules, so we have to measure by weight. And it turns out that one molecule of KOH weighs more than one molecule of NaOH. So if you want to make a soap using, for example, 57% NaOH molecules and 43% KOH molecules, what is the correct way to figure the weights for the KOH and NaOH lyes?

There are several ways to do this correctly. Some people use the summerbeemeadow.com soap calculator. It will allow you to specify the percentages of the two lyes and will calculate the weights of the two lyes for you.

Another way is to do the calculations by hand or create a spreadsheet to calculate the lye amounts.

A third way to figure the correct lye weights is to use your favorite soap recipe calculator, such as soapcalc.net. Here's how --

You are going to calculate the exact same soap recipe twice. The only difference between the two versions is your choice of lye -- use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version. TIP: If using soapcalc, be sure to put a check mark in the box for 90% KOH purity if needed for the KOH you are using.

For the first version, the recipe calculator will tell you how much NaOH that you would need to use if you wanted NaOH as ALL of the lye. In the second version, it will tell you how much KOH you would need to use if KOH was ALL of the lye.

The last step is to calculate the weights you really need for your specific recipe. Since you want a mixture of 57% NaOH and 43% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.57. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.43. This will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 57% NaOH and 43% KOH.
 

divyadinesh07

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You need to add oil as I suggested above. Put the paste back on the heat, add about 30 g water (to start with), then 328 g Olive oil, and stir and cook until you no longer see oil floating on the water. You will have to do lots of mashing of the paste and breaking it up into small pieces, and you will most probably have to add more water, but keep at it, and it will eventually come together. Liquid soap paste is more forgiving that way.

Can you clarify how many times you have made this before? I am really confused.
Can I add more than 328gm olive oil so that I can get a superfat of 3%?

You need to add oil as I suggested above. Put the paste back on the heat, add about 30 g water (to start with), then 328 g Olive oil, and stir and cook until you no longer see oil floating on the water. You will have to do lots of mashing of the paste and breaking it up into small pieces, and you will most probably have to add more water, but keep at it, and it will eventually come together. Liquid soap paste is more forgiving that way.

Can you clarify how many times you have made this before? I am really confused.
Also can I put the soap vessel on direct heat on a stove top or do the double boiler?
 
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The Efficacious Gentleman

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You can add more, of course. Just make sure to calculate it so you don't go too far over.

As for the heat, it depends if your soap vessel (that sounds very cool!) can go on the stove or not. I often make soap in stainless pans, so for me the answer is 'yes'. If you have yours in a plastic tub, I'd say 'no'
 

Susie

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^What TEG said!

You must use a lye calculator to figure the correct amount of oil. Soapee.com is really easy to use, can do hybrid soaps like this, and will save your recipe. That way, you don't even have to run that recipe again, just pull it back up, and away you go.
 

divyadinesh07

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So, you zap tested once, and got zapped. Then you rebatched, and got no zap? If so, that's good!
First batch I zap tested around 5 times over the period of cooking. The lye was so heavy that my finger tip started getting cracks. Now after rebatching just getting soap taste. But seems like after using the soap is slightly drying on skin in spite of adding 10% GLYCERIN during dilution.
 

Susie

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Glycerin really does not affect the conditioning quality of a liquid soap.
 

DeeAnna

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"...the soap is slightly drying on skin in spite of adding 10% GLYCERIN during dilution. ..."

What Susie said. Glycerin is a humectant, meaning it attracts water to the surface layer of the skin. A humectant won't do anything to reduce the immediate drying effects of a soap, if the soap strips too much protective oil and protein from your skin when you wash. Coconut oil is 30% of your recipe. That much coconut oil in the recipe can make a soap that is harsh on skin for many people.
 
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