How to get a super long lasting bar without palm, lard, or tallow?

[shunt2011]

I tell my customers the same thing. I on the other hand won’t use soy due to it being GMO. I avoid it in everything and have for a couple years now. So, it’s all a personal choice.

 

[Dean]

Just to contribute to the conversation, here's what I wrote (and share with my customers) about lard and tallow in soap:

"Let's get something out of the way. I use lard and tallow in my soaps. I don't use it all my soaps but I do use it. Now, before you condemn me, let me explain why I use them.

Very simply, they make great soap. That's the main reason. Add to that the fact that animal fats are usually a waste product, a by-product of the meat industry. I like using both lard (pig fat) and tallow (beef fat) in my soaps because they help with hardness and they're both very gentle. Soap Making Resource writes, "Lard may actually benefit the skin because it is mild, moisturizing, and conditions very well." Tallow has the same mildness, moisturizing, and conditioning benefits but also helps to create hard, long lasting bars with stable, creamy and pleasing lather.

All that, and keeping an animal product out of the landfill? Well, to me, that's a double win."

That's a really good point. Once upon time the leading fats were all animal based. My grandmother made THE BEST Christmas cookies with lard. She lived on a farm and probably made soap with it too. I remember her lamenting when she couldn't get it anymore. With animal fat not being used so much anymore I wonder if it is being thrown away. That would be a waste and shame. In terms of environmental impacts perhaps animal fat is better than both palm and SW because its using byproduct that would otherwise be wasted. My bro is a meat broker. I'll have to ask him happens to the fat...

 

[Misschief]

That's a really good point. Once upon time the leading fats were all animal based. My grandmother made THE BEST Christmas cookies with lard. She lived on a farm and probably made soap with it too. I remember her lamenting when she couldn't get it anymore. With animal fat not being used so much anymore I wonder if it is being thrown away. That would be a waste and shame. In terms of environmental impacts perhaps animal fat is better than both palm and SW because its using byproduct that would otherwise be wasted. My bro is a meat broker. I'll have to ask him happens to the fat...

I'd love to know what he says.

 

[Dean]

I'd love to know what he says.

He says it goes into pet food and or is cooked down into an oily liquid and shipped for further processing. He doesn't know what happens after that. Google identifies the following uses for beef fat:

"Industrial oils and lubricants, tallow for tanning, soaps, lipsticks, face and hand creams, some medicines, and ingredients for explosives are produced from the inedible fats from beef. Fatty acids are used in the production of chemicals, biodegradable detergents, pesticides, and flotation agents. One fatty acid is used to make automobile tires run cooler and, therefore last longer."
​

I bet lard use is similar.

Lots of products have lauric and myristic acid based ingredients. Its probably all fat derived.

 

[KimT2au]

Ooohhh, what an interesting conversation. There are so many areas I would like to contribute to. Where to start?

^^NZers and Aussies have different priorities to those in the US.
I didn’t buy one handmade soap on a trip to Canada and the US (and I saw many) because I couldn’t find any that didn’t have palm, lard or tallow. Many didn’t list the ingredients at all. I also don’t want unwrapped soap.

LOL, I purchased hand made soap from the same man for about 10 or 12 years before I started to make soap this year. It is only since I took up soaping (is that a verb?) that I even realised that he did not have ingredients listed on his labels plus all his soaps are displayed and sold unwrapped. It just never occurred to me to expect any different.

Never once have I been asked about palm oil or it's byproducts. If people only knew how many things they ingest have palm oil or a dirivitive of it in it, they would probably be shocked.

My daughter has taken her stance on palm oil and it does make life more difficult. At 9 months of age my daughter was diagnosed with multiple allergies and at 18 has not outgrown them. She is allergic to wheat (not gluten intolerant, she is allergic to wheat), eggs, dairy, potato, barley and dogs, however as we had the dogs before we had the baby there was no chance of the dogs going. Anyway, I shop in a store with foods from lots of different countries as it is easier to find foods that fit in with her allergies but now that she refuses to have palm oil as well it is making it hellishly difficult.

I heard bees get smashed in the honey gathering process so there is an issue with honey and its byproducts. I do buy honey though, wear leather cuz I consider it a byproduct, my sunscreen has palm and just found out so does my lip balm (next on my list to make). I guess we all have to weigh what we think is most important and prioritize accordingly.

I guess it depends where you get the honey from. I would think that the individual bee keeper who cold processes his/her honey would try to minimise bee loss. You are right about each of us prioritising accordingly, my Mother strongly objects to the way sheep are transported here in Australia so she has chosen to vote with her dollars and does not eat lamb. It is a bit of a pain though as she lives with us and I do the cooking which means none of us eat lamb or she needs a separate meal. When Mum goes away it is lamb almost every night though.

If you are looking for a vegan lip balm recipe I can highly recommend this one. https://www.humblebeeandme.com/vanilla-spice-vegan-lip-balm/

My bro is a meat broker. I'll have to ask him happens to the fat...

The butcher I get my pig fat from and one of the butchers I sometimes get my beef fat from are both nose to tail butchers and everything is sold and nothing goes to waste. The other butcher I use throws away his beef fat so if I can get it from him I do as he does not charge me for it

 

[SaltedFig]

I heard bees get smashed in the honey gathering process so there is an issue with honey and its byproducts. I do buy honey though, wear leather cuz I consider it a byproduct, my sunscreen has palm and just found out so does my lip balm (next on my list to make). I guess we all have to weigh what we think is most important and prioritize accordingly. I agree that Monsanto is evil but I rather buy their product than buy palm now...the lesser of two evils to me. I respect other peoples choices to soap with whatever. However, I rather not know if someone boiled their rabbit or horse and made some lovely soap from the fat!

One of the issues that is faced is that once seed stock is "contaminated" with a GMO that is still under patent, the grower no longer own the rights to it.
GURTs (GURT=Genetic Use Restriction Technology, a group of plant rights/patents that includes the "Terminator gene" patents), which have been promoted in the past as a "solution" to this "contamination" problem, are gene modifications that make me extremely nervous.

On a happy note, these Aussie beekeepers invented a hive you might like to look at: Flow Hive
This is the original crowd-funding video from 2015:

 

[penelopejane]

LOL, I purchased hand made soap from the same man for about 10 or 12 years before I started to make soap this year. It is only since I took up soaping (is that a verb?) that I even realised that he did not have ingredients listed on his labels plus all his soaps are displayed and sold unwrapped. It just never occurred to me to expect any different.

My daughter has taken her stance on palm oil and it does make life more difficult. At 9 months of age my daughter was diagnosed with multiple allergies and at 18 has not outgrown them. She is allergic to wheat (not gluten intolerant, she is allergic to wheat), eggs, dairy, potato, barley and dogs, however as we had the dogs before we had the baby there was no chance of the dogs going. Anyway, I shop in a store with foods from lots of different countries as it is easier to find foods that fit in with her allergies but now that she refuses to have palm oil as well it is making it hellishly difficult.

I guess it depends on why you decided on handmade soap. I have a lot of allergies, so do my sons and my DH and sons have eczema so I came to handmade soap to avoid certain things in soap. I'm allergic to salicylates. I am highly allergic to corn, palm oil and coconut oil. You'd think it was just eating them but it seems that my skin doesn't like them either - I itch and get weezy when I use them. Anything with unidentified "vegetable oil" on the label in Oz is probably palm oil. Basically they all cause inflammation in me.

I am now (3 years) gluten intolerant too (not coeliac but Non Coeliac Gluten Intolerant). So basically it is easier to make my own fresh food. It is tough trying to buy food on the run! Just about everything processed and GF is made with corn or palm oil so that cuts them out for me.

 

[AliOop]

I have even been asked if my soaps are "gluten free" which to me, made absolutely no sense at all, as gluten allergies typically are discovered when gluten is ingested, not used topically.

Several of my family members have celiac disease, and absolutely they are affected when they use body care products that contain gluten. The skin is the largest organ in the body, and it is used to deliver medications all the time (nicotine patches, for example) exactly because it absorbs so well. Many celiacs are unaware of this and unknowingly cause themselves unnecessary "flares" because their doctors never advised them to use GF make-up, shampoo, soap, lotion, etc.

 

[penelopejane]

Many commercial soaps use tallow. Including dove soap!

 

[Dawni]

My problem not having the mentioned fats is I can't seem to find them without having to shell out half a kidney..

I get the feeling that the animal fats are not readily available at the butcher's is coz people include them in their cooking. In poorer countries who wants to throw something that's cheap and still edible? I doubt they worry about their health too haha

But I have not tried all the butchers. I'm sure I'll find tallow or lard somewhere. Butters and waxes aren't cheap...

Palm surprises me. I know we export it so I have no idea why I can't find palm nor palm kernel oil. There is only Palmolein, which I know is similar, but it's still not the same thing. I've used Palmolein in soaping.

I cannot be palm free in general because if I open my fridge and pantry there's too many things the household depends on (or likes, or wants) that's made with palm oil so it seems a little contradictory to not want to use it in soap because of environmental concerns. At least in this house. Until I can find a way to eliminate everything I will use it if I can find it. Those who don't want it in their soaps should really check their food labels.....

My SO does not use palm anything and is vegan. As I want to make soap he can use I'm reduced to using butters, and maybe I will try candelila or soy wax since he hasn't had a problem with GMOs. Not yet....

You can imagine how long we spend at the supermarket. But because he's all about healthy he has no problem not finding chips, instant noodles, sandwich spreads, etc. because a majority of them have palm. It's a problem when it comes to bread and soap haha.. He uses a Castile or a olive and coconut soap, even for his hair. I've not checked what toothpaste he uses but I have not paid attention to what's in it to begin with lol

It's also a problem for me coz I want to get things over and done with lol.

 

[penelopejane]

If you want to eat palm free you are pretty much restricted to unprocessed food. In Australia “vegetable oil” in the ingredients generally means palm oil.

If it’s not palm oil they are happy to specify canola oil etc.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Yep - we eat pretty much all unprocessed food in our house. I'm sure my son eats some garbage with palm in it, but us 'grownups' don't. I make most things from scratch: gluten free bread, seed crackers, low-carb desserts, granola etc. An d for snacks we pretty much stick to raw nuts, or ones we've cooked ourselves.

I've recently started using soy wax for my palm and vegan alternative to 'hard' fat in my soap. Yet to check out the performance of the soap as it's still too young, but it looks good! My only concern is that it might be a little too hard or 'waxy' so I might try only 15% SW next batch.

 

[Dawni]

Yeah, it's my son who consumes most of it. We try to eat whole foods always but sometimes he really just wants chicken nuggets lol

Since Karthick turned vegan and palm-free the rest of us have become pretty good with TRYING to eat unprocessed foods, coz of health concerns, not necessarily environmental though..

 

[Jill B Blasius]

Many commercial soaps use tallow. Including dove soap!

I've always had sensitive skin issues since I was young and one of the soaps that worked for me were Yardley products, which are tallow based. Worked better for me than castile.

I buy most of my base oils at Costco. But if you want "less expensive" luxury oil (if you compare to online cost+shipping), try Walmart. (I personally try not to shop there, but when a spatula at my next closest store is $4.50 and Walmart is a $1, well... I do). They have castor (in the pharmacy), walnut, hemp, sesame, grapeseed, sunflower, pumpkin and argan oils. And most are organic as well.

Edit: I *want* that beehive insert!

 

[Lin19687]

@Dean That Flow Hive is the worst thing ever. No Bee Keeper here uses them nor would they around here. Too long a list to get into the reasons, also at a silly $700 not worth it. Many did try it and it soon was put on the Sale block.
In the Honey process, very few bees are killed in the HOME Bee keeper. I won't talk about commercial keeping as they don't care as much.

 

[Chris_S]

Thanks for sharing. That would make sense from a marketing viewpoint.

I was reading up again on palm. Interestingly, the problem was exasperated with the whole trans-fat health scare. Food manufacturers switched from trans fat (hydrogenated oil) to palm. So one problem has been replaced with another. Its the tao...everything has an opposite. What is good can also be bad.

I heard bees get smashed in the honey gathering process so there is an issue with honey and its byproducts. I do buy honey though, wear leather cuz I consider it a byproduct, my sunscreen has palm and just found out so does my lip balm (next on my list to make). I guess we all have to weigh what we think is most important and prioritize accordingly. I agree that Monsanto is evil but I rather buy their product than buy palm now...the lesser of two evils to me. I respect other peoples choices to soap with whatever. However, I rather not know if someone boiled their rabbit or horse and made some lovely soap from the fat!

Couldnt speak for mass produced honey but have a look at honey extractors that use centrifugal force for cold extracted honey usually used by local beekeepers in the uk at least. Done properly bees wont be harmed. Beekeeping in general will kill the odd bee if your working with a large colony say 50k bees you have to realise that a few squashed bees are inevitable but in such a large colony it is a small loss any real beekeeper will always try thier best to avoid killing bees as it goes against thier ethics and most importantly goes against why they are keeping bees. I am part of a club and honestly a surprisingly high number dont even extract thier honey and never have done so.

Enviromental factors are far more damaging to bees than honey being extracted. In england at least there is a website that farmers can warn of crop spraying so you can take measures to protect your bees from coming in contact with pesticides. Asain hornets in europe are a major threat to bee populations luckily not established locally to me yet but i fear its only a maatter of time.

And also when it comes to autumn the female bees throw out the male drones who then die as a result i would say that more bees die from that than those who die while cold extraction honey method. Iv also read somewhere that soy is even a threat to bee populations because of the chemicals used to farm.

The way i look at it is pretty much everything has a negative effect in some way or another so its a matter of reducing this negative effect the best you can. For example palm oil yes its not good with regards to poor practises but as someone has already pointed out its in a hell alot of food we eat so its difficult to avoid completely. Also the meat industry is far more harmful in regards to deforestation than the palm industry. I have been using organic rspo in my soaps so far but will be looking into alternatives. Sorry for the long post

 

[SaltedFig]

Couldnt speak for mass produced honey but have a look at honey extractors that use centrifugal force for cold extracted honey usually used by local beekeepers in the uk at least. Done properly bees wont be harmed. Beekeeping in general will kill the odd bee if your working with a large colony say 50k bees you have to realise that a few squashed bees are inevitable but in such a large colony it is a small loss any real beekeeper will always try thier best to avoid killing bees as it goes against thier ethics and most importantly goes against why they are keeping bees. I am part of a club and honestly a surprisingly high number dont even extract thier honey and never have done so.

Enviromental factors are far more damaging to bees than honey being extracted. In england at least there is a website that farmers can warn of crop spraying so you can take measures to protect your bees from coming in contact with pesticides. Asain hornets in europe are a major threat to bee populations luckily not established locally to me yet but i fear its only a maatter of time.

And also when it comes to autumn the female bees throw out the male drones who then die as a result i would say that more bees die from that than those who die while cold extraction honey method. Iv also read somewhere that soy is even a threat to bee populations because of the chemicals used to farm.

The way i look at it is pretty much everything has a negative effect in some way or another so its a matter of reducing this negative effect the best you can. For example palm oil yes its not good with regards to poor practises but as someone has already pointed out its in a hell alot of food we eat so its difficult to avoid completely. Also the meat industry is far more harmful in regards to deforestation than the palm industry. I have been using organic rspo in my soaps so far but will be looking into alternatives. Sorry for the long post

What a sensible post

The chemicals we use have a terrible impact on our bees.
Small, home based Hive structure choices are a secondary concern.

@Dean That Flow Hive is the worst thing ever. No Bee Keeper here uses them nor would they around here. Too long a list to get into the reasons, also at a silly $700 not worth it. Many did try it and it soon was put on the Sale block.
In the Honey process, very few bees are killed in the HOME Bee keeper. I won't talk about commercial keeping as they don't care as much.

Lin, I posted the flow hive for Dean to see what is available in terms of reducing bee damage (squishing).

Like any animal product system, it has benefits and downsides (high cost being one - you pay for the idea, same as any other patented innovation).

 

[Chris_S]

What a sensible post

Its a curse and a blessing lol Im only 31 im practically still a teen well i keep telling myself that anyways so it must be true