How to get a super long lasting bar without palm, lard, or tallow?

[Anika]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theast-asia-greenwashing-purdue-a8674681.html

All palm has a detrimental impact on the environment, so I won't use that. I don't feel morally opposed to using tallow or lard because they are byproducts, but I would like to begin selling by the end of 2019 (I'm just testing longevity of my soap right now) and I feel like lard is unattractive on a label. I have some lovely recipes I made with late, but yeah... Label appeal.

I heard Olive oil cures super hard, but let's get real. A soap business is quite difficult with a 12 month pre-stocking!

I used salt, which helped a lot, but not enough. Sodium lactate was ok. Nothing special.

So, any ideas? An I missing any other key ingredients that might help my soap stick around longer?

 

[dixiedragon]

Might be worth trying soy wax. My question is, is being super long lasting REALLY such a huge selling point? I know people don't want the soap to be gone in a week, but I think as long as your soap lasts for a month you're good. Give your soaps a good long cure - 2-3 months - and tell people not to let them sit in a puddle.

 

[IrishLass]

Stearic acid and beeswax are good hardeners. You don't need to use much of them either. Many folks use them at 2% or 3% ppo to make a harder soap. You don't want to go too much higher with either of them than 3% to 5% in a regular bath bar because there is a point of diminishing returns where your soap's ability to lather is concerned.......also- too much can lead to cracking and/or crumbly soap.

Edited to add that both are a bear to soap if you're used to soaping at cool temps.

I've heard good things about the soy wax Dixie mentioned.

If you don't want to use lard because of label appeal, you can always use beef tallow instead. It is harder than lard...... although it doesn't feel as nice as lard, if you ask me.


IrishLass

 

[dixiedragon]

I love beeswax at 5% in soap, but 10% makes a softer bar. Which is weird, I wish I knew the science behind that.

 

[Dean]

Stearic acid and beeswax are good hardeners. You don't need to use much of them either. Many folks use them at 2% or 3% ppo to make a harder soap. You don't want to go too much higher with either of them than 3% to 5% in a regular bath bar because there is a point of diminishing returns where your soap's ability to lather is concerned.......also- too much can lead to cracking and/or crumbly soap.

I've heard good things about the soy wax Dixie mentioned.

If you don't want to use lard because of label appeal, you can always use beef tallow instead. It is harder than lard...... although it doesn't feel as nice as lard, if you ask me.


IrishLass

Stearic acid is made from palm oil or animal fat.

 

[IrishLass]

Stearic acid is made from palm oil or animal fat.

Doh (slaps forehead), good point! How about stearin? See here: https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/palm-free-stearic-acid


IrishLass

 

[lsg]

You might try adding sodium lactate and/or beeswax.

 

[kayak1987]

Just an Idea, with olive oil make a "lower glyceryn" soap, by making on half oil a full saponification in lye and water excess, salting out the soap, washing it in brine, then re-add the soap to the other half of oil, melt, add the required lye and finish the process as usual..?

This must be something half way from a boiled-salted out Aleppo or marsille soap and a normal olive oil soap (in my idea)

 

[shunt2011]

Just an Idea, with olive oil make a "lower glyceryn" soap, by making on half oil a full saponification in lye and water excess, salting out the soap, washing it in brine, then re-add the soap to the other half of oil, melt, add the required lye and finish the process as usual..?

This must be something half way from a boiled-salted out Aleppo or marsille soap and a normal olive oil soap (in my idea)

May I ask why? This totally negates why we make handmade soap.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theast-asia-greenwashing-purdue-a8674681.html

All palm has a detrimental impact on the environment, so I won't use that. I don't feel morally opposed to using tallow or lard because they are byproducts, but I would like to begin selling by the end of 2019 (I'm just testing longevity of my soap right now) and I feel like lard is unattractive on a label. I have some lovely recipes I made with late, but yeah... Label appeal.

I heard Olive oil cures super hard, but let's get real. A soap business is quite difficult with a 12 month pre-stocking!

I used salt, which helped a lot, but not enough. Sodium lactate was ok. Nothing special.

So, any ideas? An I missing any other key ingredients that might help my soap stick around longer?

There are quite a few threads on this subject if you do a search. Dixiedragon has shared a recipe in this thread.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/palm-free-and-vegan.71110/

I sell and have no issues with lard/tallow or palm. Very few customers even read the label. I do purchase responsibly sourced Palm. I also think of the families that may starve which to me is more important.

 

[amd]

I sell and have no issues with lard/tallow or palm. Very few customers even read the label. I do purchase responsibly sourced Palm. I also think of the families that may starve which to me is more important.

Very few of my customers read the ingredients label as well. I've had one customer ask for a return because she discovered it was an animal product after the purchase. Only once have I had someone ask if my soaps were vegan, and then walk away without purchasing. However I do get asked, shockingly often as I live in a heavy agricultural area, what Lard or Tallow is. Even after being told, I've never had anyone say "gross" or be stopped from making a purchase. I've had more customers read my label to find out who I am and where I'm from than for what my soap is made of.

 

[Dean]

Very few of my customers read the ingredients label as well. I've had one customer ask for a return because she discovered it was an animal product after the purchase. Only once have I had someone ask if my soaps were vegan, and then walk away without purchasing. However I do get asked, shockingly often as I live in a heavy agricultural area, what Lard or Tallow is. Even after being told, I've never had anyone say "gross" or be stopped from making a purchase. I've had more customers read my label to find out who I am and where I'm from than for what my soap is made of.

That's interesting. I wonder if its because most handmade soap is about the fragrance and creative visual appeal.

 

[cmzaha]

I sell both vegan and non vegan, my vegan soaps always includes palm, my non-vegan are tallow/lard based. In all my years selling I have had very few complain about the use of palm. I still remember one doctor that mentioned the use of palm and he disapproved of it, but he gave me a chance to give my outlook on the subject which is some family has dinner on their table or their children have shoes. He walked away thinking, came back a while later and bought soap, (yes, I have told this story before).We just have to get our priorities in place. As for lard on a label I really have never had a complaint about lard on the label. My labels do indicate whether a soap is vegan or non-vegan.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Interesting conversation - I too am going for the Palm free, vegan approach to my soaps. I've just ordered Soy Wax to try in my soaps (arriving today!) I was going to use 20 - 25 % of soy wax - is this too much??
I will say that I have been buying my soaps from market vendors and also from the store 'Lush' (not sure if you have them in the USA, but they are in Aussie, NZ and UK) and NOT ONCE until now that I've started making soap myself, did I ever look at a label or ask what ingredients were used. I could be washing myself with palm or animals as we speak!
My reasons for not using palm, even if it's sustainable, is that in NZ at least, there is a real stigma about it - so it's easier to avoid using it altogether. We have a lot of 'greenies' here in NZ.

 

[Misschief]

Very few of my customers read the ingredients label as well. I've had one customer ask for a return because she discovered it was an animal product after the purchase. Only once have I had someone ask if my soaps were vegan, and then walk away without purchasing. However I do get asked, shockingly often as I live in a heavy agricultural area, what Lard or Tallow is. Even after being told, I've never had anyone say "gross" or be stopped from making a purchase. I've had more customers read my label to find out who I am and where I'm from than for what my soap is made of.

I've had people ask about vegan or vegetarian soap as well. I do have a couple of soaps that do not use lard or tallow and people who are die hard vegetarian have purchased them. I've also had people question some of my soaps that use lard or tallow. Once I explain why I use them, most people are ok with it. I'll also hand them one of my brochures, which has a mini article explaining why I use both in my soaps. I've even had one customer, who prefers to use an all veg based soap but had purchased one with tallow, come back to ask about it. Once I explained it, she was quite alright with it. However, she did wonder if her tarot cards would forgive her.

 

[penelopejane]

^^NZers and Aussies have different priorities to those in the US.
I didn’t buy one handmade soap on a trip to Canada and the US (and I saw many) because I couldn’t find any that didn’t have palm, lard or tallow. Many didn’t list the ingredients at all. I also don’t want unwrapped soap.

The palm oil debate is a huge “thing” in Australia. We are aware of and discerning about what foods and produce it is in. A few people have allergies to it as well.

You don’t need 12 months cure for a high OO soap unless it’s 100% OO.

 

[jcandleattic]

I get asked about vegan soaps at least once at every show I vend at. Most of my soaps I can claim as vegan, - there are a few I use silk in though, so I set those all together at one side of my display. I have even been asked if my soaps are "gluten free" which to me, made absolutely no sense at all, as gluten allergies typically are discovered when gluten is ingested, not used topically.

Never once have I been asked about palm oil or it's byproducts. If people only knew how many things they ingest have palm oil or a dirivitive of it in it, they would probably be shocked.
After researching all sides of the palm debate for months, from various sources with a huge swinging pendulum on both sides of the debate, I personally have come to the conclusion, I will continue to use PKO in my soaps.

 

[Dean]

Interesting conversation - I too am going for the Palm free, vegan approach to my soaps. I've just ordered Soy Wax to try in my soaps (arriving today!) I was going to use 20 - 25 % of soy wax - is this too much??
I will say that I have been buying my soaps from market vendors and also from the store 'Lush' (not sure if you have them in the USA, but they are in Aussie, NZ and UK) and NOT ONCE until now that I've started making soap myself, did I ever look at a label or ask what ingredients were used. I could be washing myself with palm or animals as we speak!
My reasons for not using palm, even if it's sustainable, is that in NZ at least, there is a real stigma about it - so it's easier to avoid using it altogether. We have a lot of 'greenies' here in NZ.

The amount of SW depends on desired hardness/longevity that you want. It also depends on the other saturated oils in your recipe. More CO and butters, less SW.

I'm currently soaping at a hardness of 51-54. They bend less now but still arnt so hard they won't dent when dropped.

I see that you are an artist...cool rocks. Is that a NZ thang? I bet you can design some nice soap packaging if you go pro. Are you doing intricate designs (I don't)? They are suppose be easier with higher percentage of liquid oils (less saturated oils AKA SW).

 

[SaltedFig]

Doh (slaps forehead), good point! How about stearin? See here: https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/palm-free-stearic-acid
IrishLass

Given the OP is not opposed to using animal products, a tallow based stearic acid may be suitable IL (fat source is often available on the MSDS from the manufacturer, or at least here it is ... not sure if it's the same for you?)

Curious to have a rapeseed oil derived stearic acid (I don't think I've seen that one before ... doing a quick search suggests that a breeding program was underway to increase the stearic acid from <3%, back in 2006, so it must have been succesful!).

Personally I like beeswax in soap, it gives a lovely texture at fairly low values. Vegetable waxes can be substituted, some of which can be sourced as certified organic (which generally appeals to the the green conscious crowd).

Interesting conversation - I too am going for the Palm free, vegan approach to my soaps. I've just ordered Soy Wax to try in my soaps (arriving today!) I was going to use 20 - 25 % of soy wax - is this too much??
I will say that I have been buying my soaps from market vendors and also from the store 'Lush' (not sure if you have them in the USA, but they are in Aussie, NZ and UK) and NOT ONCE until now that I've started making soap myself, did I ever look at a label or ask what ingredients were used. I could be washing myself with palm or animals as we speak!
My reasons for not using palm, even if it's sustainable, is that in NZ at least, there is a real stigma about it - so it's easier to avoid using it altogether. We have a lot of 'greenies' here in NZ.

Soy wax is artificially hardened (hydrogenated, like margarine) to mimic the qualities of the saturated (harder) fats. GMO soybean oil (modified for pesticide resistance) is a very common and cheap source oil for the manufacture of soy wax. Soy wax cannot be certified organic (even if you could find a non-GMO version).

Hydrogenated GMO fats have their own label difficulties, and there is a bit of cross-over between the palm-free and the GMO free label-reading groups

 

[Dean]

Hydrogenated GMO fats have their own label difficulties, and there is a bit of cross-over between the palm-free and the GMO free label-reading groups

Thanks for sharing. That would make sense from a marketing viewpoint.

I was reading up again on palm. Interestingly, the problem was exasperated with the whole trans-fat health scare. Food manufacturers switched from trans fat (hydrogenated oil) to palm. So one problem has been replaced with another. Its the tao...everything has an opposite. What is good can also be bad.

I heard bees get smashed in the honey gathering process so there is an issue with honey and its byproducts. I do buy honey though, wear leather cuz I consider it a byproduct, my sunscreen has palm and just found out so does my lip balm (next on my list to make). I guess we all have to weigh what we think is most important and prioritize accordingly. I agree that Monsanto is evil but I rather buy their product than buy palm now...the lesser of two evils to me. I respect other peoples choices to soap with whatever. However, I rather not know if someone boiled their rabbit or horse and made some lovely soap from the fat!

 

[Misschief]

Its the tao...everything has an opposite. What is good can also be bad.

I heard bees get smashed in the honey gathering process so there is an issue with honey and its byproducts. I do buy honey though, wear leather cuz I consider it a byproduct, my sunscreen has palm and just found out so does my lip balm (next on my list to make). I guess we all have to weigh what we think is most important and prioritize accordingly. I agree that Monsanto is evil but I rather buy their product than buy palm now...the lesser of two evils to me. I respect other peoples choices to soap with whatever. I rather not know if someone boiled their rabbit or horse and made some lovely soap from the fat though!

Just to contribute to the conversation, here's what I wrote (and share with my customers) about lard and tallow in soap:

"Let's get something out of the way. I use lard and tallow in my soaps. I don't use it all my soaps but I do use it. Now, before you condemn me, let me explain why I use them.

Very simply, they make great soap. That's the main reason. Add to that the fact that animal fats are usually a waste product, a by-product of the meat industry. I like using both lard (pig fat) and tallow (beef fat) in my soaps because they help with hardness and they're both very gentle. Soap Making Resource writes, "Lard may actually benefit the skin because it is mild, moisturizing, and conditions very well." Tallow has the same mildness, moisturizing, and conditioning benefits but also helps to create hard, long lasting bars with stable, creamy and pleasing lather.

All that, and keeping an animal product out of the landfill? Well, to me, that's a double win."