Conditioning Help (please and thank you)

[Ralph Deitrick]

I still feel like that's kind of heavy on the "cleansing" oils. I also feel like 5% isn't going to affect much. I like my avocado at 10%, at least. I'd probably take it away from the CO or PKO, since you're also getting hardness from the Shea.

All of us who like avocado for some undefinable reason are going to keep suggesting you use more. Everyone else is just going to roll their eyes at us and shrug. [emoji1]

Your advice is sound. I'll readjust the avocado/PKO/CO amounts and give it a shot. I just have to be careful I don't have too much soap laying around the house. It's just me here, and I don't use that much soap
As for falling into camps, I fully get it. We all make decisions and stick with what works. I'm guilty of that on many levels. I HAVE to use beeswax in everything. I can't even conceive of something without it. It is of course THE wonder ingredient that allows the earth to continue its rotation on its axis, duh!

Make sure the Sunflower is HO not regular

I’d drop the lauric+myristic down to at least 10. I use AO, which produces more lather than other high oleics, and get good lather with that level of L+M. Even at 10 soap can be drying in winter. I find high SF not helpful.

Single AvO soap has reported to leave a greasy film after rinsing so using it lower amts may have a cond benefit that sticks around after rinse. I started a thread on this. Got responses but not really much of a confirmation.

(All these initialisms) AO? Avocado Oil?

 

[artemis]

I just have to be careful I don't have too much soap laying around the house. It's just me here, and I don't use that much soap

Do you have a little 16 oz loaf mold? That's what I use, especially for experimentation. Enough to gift, use, and study.

I can't even conceive of something without it. It is of course THE wonder ingredient that allows the earth to continue its rotation on its axis, duh!

I have heard that a small amount of bees wax helps avoid Ash, so no harm there.

 

[artemis]

Oh! Also, I think 10% superfat is kind of high. The cool kids are all hanging out around 5%. The really cool kids often go lower still! [emoji50]

 

[DeeAnna]

Where you see olive oil in a recipe, you don't need to reject the recipe. Simply substitute another high oleic (HO) oil. Sweet almond is an option, but expensive. Other options that are fairly similar to olive include high oleic sunflower, HO safflower, and HO canola. Avocado and rice bran oil are other HO oils to consider. Honestly, there is no particular magic to any of them I've listed, including avocado.

Avocado has a higher % of unsaponifiable content in it, and some people believe these unsaponifiables offer benefits to the skin. I often use avocado in my soap, but more for label appeal than anything. I can't say avocado has any greater benefit in soap than other high oleic fats based on my use of it in soap.

Remember the fats get broken into fatty acids and glycerin during saponification. When the soap is done, there is very little of the original fats left in the soap. Most of these trace fats and the unsaponifiable materials get washed down the drain.

 

[Dean]

(All these initialisms) AO? Avocado Oil?

AO almond oil
AvO avocado oil

 

[artemis]

Honestly, there is no particular magic to any of them I've listed, including avocado.

But, DeeAnna, as scientist it would be harder for you to understand magic. It's the magic that makes it work. I'm sure of it.

Edited to add magic: [emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]

 

[Dean]

But, DeeAnna, as scientist it would be harder for you to understand magic. It's the magic that makes it work. I'm sure of it.

Edited to add magic: [emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]*[emoji92]

You must be a Disney or Shaun Cassidy fan.

 

[cmzaha]

Thanks for the help. Playing around on the calculator here's what I'll try:

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 20%
Lard 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Castor Oil 10%
Avocado Oil 5%
Safflower, HO 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

Your cleansing number is still going to be high due to the total 35% CO and PKO, both work about the same in soap, although I do think PKO is a tad milder than CO, and I do use a combination of the two. I now use a total of 18% split between CO & PKO. You do not need to use 2 liquid oils at 5% I would lower the Shea to 10% and use AVO or Safflower at 15%.

I agree with DeeAnna in soap I find Avocado has great label appeal but I have pretty much quit using it in all but 1 soap which I also use Avocado Puree. I now use Sunflower HO, Canola HO, of Safflower HO and never OO except in my yearly 100% OO soap. Avocado Oil I now save for lotions.

Tallow also has a higher cleansing value than Lard, but I prefer a Tallow/Lard combination in the 50% range.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

AO almond oil
AvO avocado oil

Thank you.

You must be a Disney or Shaun Cassidy fan.

Wow! Shaun Cassidy... That kind of ages you (and me for even getting the reference).

Your cleansing number is still going to be high due to the total 35% CO and PKO, both work about the same in soap, although I do think PKO is a tad milder than CO, and I do use a combination of the two. I now use a total of 18% split between CO & PKO. You do not need to use 2 liquid oils at 5% I would lower the Shea to 10% and use AVO or Safflower at 15%.

I agree with DeeAnna in soap I find Avocado has great label appeal but I have pretty much quit using it in all but 1 soap which I also use Avocado Puree. I now use Sunflower HO, Canola HO, of Safflower HO and never OO except in my yearly 100% OO soap. Avocado Oil I now save for lotions.

Tallow also has a higher cleansing value than Lard, but I prefer a Tallow/Lard combination in the 50% range.

I have adjusted my recipe accordingly. Thanks for the insights.

 

[DeeAnna]

Off topic --

@artemis -- Thank you for the chuckle. I needed it badly! Today is one of those days where everything seems more difficult than I think it should, so your post magically appeared to lighten my day. The laugh has been good for my soul.

 

[Obsidian]

No, I do not have to use butters. I started using it a while back and they seemed to work so I just left them. I have been hesitant to just strip the recipe and revamp since it is "almost there".

Interesting perspective to focus on the cleansing number. I've never taken that approach.

I really like the minimalist approach of this without the use of olive oil

When I first started soaping, I focused mainly on the conditioning number and just couldn't get a soap that wasn't drying or tight.

I started adding lard because it was cheap and easy to find. Eventually I discovered its the HO in a recipe, especially from olive that was giving me issues so I upped my lard a lot.

Now I never use OO, I just hate the stuff. Instead I use HO safflower which is just fine. I really like sunflower but its very expensive here so it only goes in special soap.

If you want to try my lard recipe, drop the lard by 1% and add in your beeswax. Make a small batch, just to see.

I made hundreds of batches, spent well over 2000 dollars trying fancy oils and had so much soap I couldn't give it away just to settle on a simple recipe I can make with grocery store oils.

Testing recipes can just be part of the process of finding the right soap for you.

 

[Ralph Deitrick]

When I first started soaping, I focused mainly on the conditioning number and just couldn't get a soap that wasn't drying or tight.

I started adding lard because it was cheap and easy to find. Eventually I discovered its the HO in a recipe, especially from olive that was giving me issues so I upped my lard a lot.

Now I never use OO, I just hate the stuff. Instead I use HO safflower which is just fine. I really like sunflower but its very expensive here so it only goes in special soap.

If you want to try my lard recipe, drop the lard by 1% and add in your beeswax. Make a small batch, just to see.

I made hundreds of batches, spent well over 2000 dollars trying fancy oils and had so much soap I couldn't give it away just to settle on a simple recipe I can make with grocery store oils.

Testing recipes can just be part of the process of finding the right soap for you.

Amen to not spending unneeded $$$.

Do you have a little 16 oz loaf mold? That's what I use, especially for experimentation. Enough to gift, use, and study.



I have heard that a small amount of bees wax helps avoid Ash, so no harm there.

I have four small 4 oz molds I use to test batches of 1/2 lb. If I'm feeling ultra precise on a given day, I can go down to 1/4 lb

 

[Dean]

OK so to start, I did skim through all 161 results when I searched "conditioning". I was trying to be self sufficient
Next point... This question concerns my daily, in the shower, unscented soap.
Last point... Olive oil is NOT an option.

Here's the issue... I live in Phoenix and it's pretty dry here . I am trying to up the conditioning properties of my CP soap. I have created this recipe (below) over time and it hits all the areas I want, i.e. later, hardness, skin feel. I just want to bump the conditioning up some. It's pretty good but with my skin type, it could be a little better.

I have tried messing with different calculators but minor adjustments don't point me in the direction I want to go. I have also found that the calculators results aren't always indicative of the actual results "felt". So I would love any recommendations you all might have based on experience that raise the conditioning level of hard CP soap.

SF @ 10%
Coconut Oil 30%
Beef Tallow 29%
Palm Kernel Oil 15%
Shea Butter 10%
Castor Oil 10%
Sweet Almond Oil 5%
Beeswax 1%

Sodium Lactate (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)
Honey (rate of 1 t. PPO added at trace)

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

I looked back at ur recipie. U have a lot going on there. Consider simplifying until u get a bar that u like and then add more ingredients.

Just for fun, I put the ur key oils in the calc and adjusted the amts. I think you’ll get a much more mild bar with something like below. If its still too drying, u can drop the CO by 5 and increase the tallow by 5. Disclaimer, I dont have experience with animal fat but it all comes dn to fatty acids anyway.

 

[cmzaha]

I would still add in lard along with the tallow in Dean's recipe above. Tallow does not make the greatest soap, in my opinion, in high percentages. For me, 45% tallow is the sweet in combination with lard, and a HO liquid oil, Co/Pko combination and castor oil

 

[dixiedragon]

Here's a link to our abbreviations and acronyms:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/the-acronym-and-abbreviation-definition-thread.51841/

 

[shunt2011]

Thanks for the recipe but it has olive oil in it so it's a no go for me

I switched out the OO for lard. It worked great. You could also try Tallow but maybe lower the amount a bit and up something else. I also replace the soybean with sunflower.

 

[Clarice]

Ralph - I am fairly new to soaping, and I was having trouble absorbing the wealth of information shared here - especially with respect to oil properties. So - I went a hunting with "The GOOGLE" and compiled this (pdfs attached) If it helps, great, if it doesn't, ditch it!

Please note it is not exhaustive by any means

Also - for the life of me (fatty acid chart) I do not understand the difference between being a primary or secondary source of a particular acid, nor do I understand how there can be no primary oil, while there is a secondary! HAH

 

[redhead1226]

You will always have newer soapmakers refer to the word MOISTURIZING when wanting to create a bar of soap. But soap doesn't do that. You can make it less drying as the others have stated here. The ingredients matter in every bar and just one wrong oil at a higher percentage can negate the other wonderful oils or butters. Most of us are all long term experienced soapmakers who have done all the hard work in formulating what we think is a recipe with the best qualities.

With that being said, we all can have a different idea of what we like. My best advise is to follow all the info you have received here and do the experiments to see what YOU like. But this advise is coming from the best of the best.

 

[cmzaha]

It actually took me at least 8 years and tons of soap to settle on my actual go to recipes. I tweak the liquid oils, depending what I get for a good price but that is pretty much it. Don't get me wrong, not all my soaps are the same but my tallow/lard ratio stays the same in my non-vegan soaps and my palm ratio stays the same in my vegan soaps. I like palm oil in my soap, and have more customers complain about soy

 

[Lin19687]

Also there is a ton of information on the "Beginners" section here. You can do a search just in that area too.
Also helps a bit to read up on what each oil does and the acid profiles.