color seperating crocodile effect

[beliefpatrol]

hi soap friends,

i make 50 lb block of cold processed soap and cut them into logs , then into bars

i use:
40% EVOO
30% 76deg Coconut Oil
30% RBD Palm Oil
2.5% fragrance
.005% mica coloring
lye

most of my batches come out uniform color.
but my last two batches turned out weird and i have no idea why?
i call it the "crocodile effect"
the color seems to separate from the oils and make the soap look "crocodiley" see pic
anyone have any idea how/why this happens?

 

[lsg]

Are you using titanium dioxide in your soap?

 

[dixiedragon]

That's what we call "glycerin rivers". There is some debate on the forum if TD helps cause them, or just makes them more visible. You can help prevent them by using less water. I think a lot of people here choose 33% lye solution (vs choosing the lye as percentage of oils).

I am also wondering if you mixed your purple color in water before adding it? I've found that really contributes to glycerin rivers / crackle. I've started mixing my colors in glycerin and I really like it!

 

[Lin19687]

Now to me that looks like a Separation rather then rivers, but I have never had Rivers so not a professor on the subject.
I too wonder what the Mica was mixed in.
Were all oils melted first, then mica added to oil or after the Lye ?
Was it a masterbatch of oils ?

 

[zanzalawi]

thats a really cool effect, would love to be able to recreate that!

 

[Alzie]

Very cool effect! I had something similar happen with a light purple mica and the batter accelerated due to the fragrance, started to separate during the pour and overheated creating an effect where there was a large amount of glycerin rivers that pushed the mica into thin lines kind of a reverse of what they typically look like. This effect is spectacular and I'd be interested to see if it could be replicated, as the look is very interesting.

 

[beliefpatrol]

lsg "Are you using titanium dioxide in your soap?"
yes the mica coloring has titanium dioxide in it

dixie"I am also wondering if you mixed your purple color in water before adding it?"
no but i did mix the color in the oils before i added the lye

Lin "Now to me that looks like a Separation rather then rivers"
i am pretty sure it is "separation" and not glycerin rivers
"I too wonder what the Mica was mixed in"
i mixed int in the oils first
"Were all oils melted first"
yes all melted 110degrees
"then mica added to oil or after the Lye ?"
after oil, before lye
"Was it a masterbatch of oils ?"
yup, the lye was cool, but i mixed for over 1/2 hour with power mixer, so they were mixed like crazy, but they separated somehow

Zan "thats a really cool effect, would love to be able to recreate that!"
i actually have seen soap that was like this on purpose. i tried to locate the maker and ask HOW they did it so 1, i could reproduce IF i wanted to , and 2 figure out how to prevent it too! i dont mind the look, but only if i could reproduce it consistently.

Alzie"Very cool effect! I had something similar happen with a light purple mica and the batter accelerated due to the fragrance, started to separate during the pour and overheated creating an effect where there was a large amount of glycerin rivers that pushed the mica into thin lines kind of a reverse of what they typically look like. This effect is spectacular and I'd be interested to see if it could be replicated, as the look is very interesting."
see above hehe, but i dont think this is glycerin rivers, its more like just color separation

thanks guys for your input so far!

 

[Lin19687]

Just to make sure I understood. You did use MB of oils. Heated the oils or mixed for 1/2 hour to heat it up ?

This is one reason I don't MB oils. I am a believer that as things cool and harden at different degrees that there is more room for error with the Lye. Just my Opinion, but that is why I don't do that.

 

[DeeAnna]

If the soap is firm and relatively consistent throughout, it's not separation, at least according to how we use the word on this forum. Separation is a defect due to emulsion failure and/or overheating. You will see goopy/runny/weepy/soft areas and/or cavities where the failure is at its worst.

If the soap is firm and relatively consistent except for the color variation, which is what I'm seeing in your photos, it is indeed what people call "glycerin rivers" or more correctly "mottling" or just "rivers."

The reason why glycerin rivers aren't really glycerin rivers is that this effect is not caused by the "glycerin" separating out and doing strange things. If it was, then the problem would be areas of separation with liquid weeping out. Mottling or rivers are caused by soap that's done something you aren't expecting, but it's still normal, perfectly fine soap.

A 50 lb loaf of soap is going to get pretty warm so it's fairly likely to gel, and then due to its large size, the soap is going to cool slowly. That's a perfect environment for rivers/mottling. The old soap makers who intentionally wanted to make mottled soap followed pretty much this plan of using pigmented colorants and keeping the soap warm and fluid for a long time after it was poured into huge molds.

To minimize the chance of rivers/mottling, soap with less water (33% lye concentration is a good place to start), perhaps soap a little cooler (not necessarily cold, just even a few degrees cooler), maybe even put a fan on the mold to get the soap to cool a little faster -- or at least keep the mold in a cooler environment than you have been doing. (Was your work area warmer than usual when you did these batches?) The batter should also be evenly and thoroughly mixed at the time it's poured into molds to avoid variations in the water content.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with DeeAnna, its more likely rivers than separation. Has nothing to do with masterbatching but your water content and cooling. The larger the batch the more heat generated so the recommendations above should help greatly. Since I started using a 33% lye concentration I rarely get rivers. But when I do I just embrace them. Yours has a really cool effect.

 

[Lin19687]

Ok somewhere I missed the 50# block. Obviously I was not fully reading

 

[beliefpatrol]

Just to make sure I understood. You did use MB of oils. Heated the oils or mixed for 1/2 hour to heat it up ?

This is one reason I don't MB oils. I am a believer that as things cool and harden at different degrees that there is more room for error with the Lye. Just my Opinion, but that is why I don't do that.

no i didnt masterbatch the oils, but the oils were different temps when i added to the mixing pot.
i heat up the CO and the PO and add the OO at room temp, BUT i have done it this way for a couple years now and this crocodile effect never happened before.

thanks Lin

 

[beliefpatrol]

DeeAnna

"If the soap is firm and relatively consistent except for the color variation, which is what I'm seeing in your photos, it is indeed what people call "glycerin rivers" or more correctly "mottling" or just "rivers.""

ok maybe this is what it is then BUT see my responses below

"A 50 lb loaf of soap is going to get pretty warm so it's fairly likely to gel, and then due to its large size, the soap is going to cool slowly. That's a perfect environment for rivers/mottling. The old soap makers who intentionally wanted to make mottled soap followed pretty much this plan of using pigmented colorants and keeping the soap warm and fluid for a long time after it was poured into huge molds."

i have been making 50lb blocks for a couple years now and this never happened...but i have been using natural colorants like green tea or ginger powder, stuff like that...and not this mica coloring like this batch.

"To minimize the chance of rivers/mottling, soap with less water (33% lye concentration is a good place to start), " i may try this

"perhaps soap a little cooler (not necessarily cold, just even a few degrees cooler), maybe even put a fan on the mold to get the soap to cool a little faster -- or at least keep the mold in a cooler environment than you have been doing."

i actually did soap cool, the whole batch was 95degrees while mixing, and i thought maybe it separated/rivered due to it being too cool, then heating up while going through gel phase.

"(Was your work area warmer than usual when you did these batches?) The batter should also be evenly and thoroughly mixed at the time it's poured into molds to avoid variations in the water content."

no the temp of area was the same it has been for all the other successful batches...and i mixed everything for over a 1/2 hours (normally all i need is 15 mins) so it was definitely evenly and thoroughly mixed.

thanks DeeAnna

 

[beliefpatrol]

shunt

"I agree with DeeAnna, its more likely rivers than separation. Has nothing to do with masterbatching but your water content and cooling. The larger the batch the more heat generated so the recommendations above should help greatly. Since I started using a 33% lye concentration I rarely get rivers. But when I do I just embrace them. Yours has a really cool effect."

i agree i like the way it looks, but would like to be able to keep it consistent either way

thanks shunt

 

[DeeAnna]

What I hear you saying (to paraphrase) is "I've been making the soap a certain way for years and, from my point of view, nothing has changed, so why does my soap look different."

Obviously something has changed, however slight the change might be. The altered appearance of your soap is the evidence. Your shift from botanical colorants to mineral colorants could easily be the reason. You may also find certain mineral colorants are more likely to enhance rivers and others are less likely.

To reduce the chance of rivers, I doubt you need to make wholesale changes in your methods and recipe. That said, a tweak or two might be in order to help your soap making process be more tolerant of slight changes in environmental conditions or methods or ingredients.

Using lye concentration at, say, 33% might be one of those tweaks assuming you're currently using a lower lye concentration (aka more water). Not sure, but it's certainly worth evaluating.