Waxes for lotion bars

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Anyone had experience using carnauba wax in lotion bars? I prefer not to use beeswax so I'm looking at alternatives. This seems to be the cheapest option when comparing candelilla and 'veewax' a vegan alternative to beeswax. The only concern I have is that it seems to be from a brazilian palm tree. Does this mean I can't claim to be palm oil free?
 

ResolvableOwl

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Does this mean I can't claim to be palm oil free?
I can't help you much with the carnauba itself (except that I somehow have in mind that you might have a look at rice bran wax or sunflower wax instead).

But just so much wrt palms: coconut palms are palm trees too, and if you're pedantic about “no-palm”, you would have to ban coconut oil from all your items as well, and you would have to resort to laurel oil to get some lauric bubble boost into soaps.

ETA: Nitpicking about the meaning of “palm (oil) free”: If you refer to it as not containing palm oil in the narrowest sense (the oil extracted from the pulp of palm fruits), then you're entirely safe. So are you if you want to boycott anything from Elaeis guineensis (including PKO, many vitamin E concentrates, carotene colourants, and palm kernel shell charcoal). AFAIK, the carnauba palm Copernicia prunifera is native/limited to the Caatinga ecosystem of northeastern Brazil, and cannot compete with rainforest for this reason (Like with everything, there is for sure valid ecological critique on the exploitation of these palms, but I have no overview over them). And in the end, it's a wax, not an oil, so not even the hypocritical plate-tank hysterics apply.
 
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lianasouza

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Deforestation in Brazil is mostly related to cattle and soy used to feed the cattle. In a quick search about carnaúba and deforestation this is what I could find (texts are googletranslated):

"After World War II, carnauba wax prices began to decline. Since the 1960s, wax devaluation has implied the deforestation of native carnauba trees for the implementation of other productive activities, which produces environmental and social impacts."
Federal University of Ceará

"It was concluded that there was a suppression of carnaubas for the implantation of real estate projects in the urban area, in line with the economic and demographic growth of the city."
Federal University of Bahia

"However, in recent decades, due to the devaluation of vegetable wax prices, Carnauba has once again been the target of deforestation, as its wood can be used to build houses and beach huts on the Ceará coast."
Minas Gerais Research and Scientific Initiation Association
 

Dawni

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I didn't like rice bran wax in mine.

Was also looking for vegan alternatives. In reverse, carnauba and candelila are expensive here (but I haven't checked in a while). I don't mind the vegans looking for vegan lotion bars but the carnivores who want vegan products make me roll my eyes lol

Like the people wanting palm free everything else but the food they eat is chock full of palm products - but I'm not discussing that here, ever. LOL

I have to find my notebook to try n remember why I didn't like rice bran wax. I think one reason is it reminds me of lipstick vs. the yummy scent my beeswax has. I'm also wondering if it's also because I'm just so used to the beeswax one LOL

Sorry KiwiMoose, that was long haha
 
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I've had a problem with my last batch being soft and crumbly. I really did very little different to the previous batch, except this one was made in hotter weather.
I used 40% soy wax, 30% shea, 10% CO, 13% apricot kernel, 6% meadowfoam, and the last 1% is FO and ROE.
I stupidly overwrote the percentages of the previous batch as I was tweaking it, but I think I previously used about 35% soy wax, the same shea and a little more CO.
I have now just ordered carnauba wax and cocoa butter and I am planning to tweak the recipe further using these items. To make the carnauba go further I'm thinking I will still use some soy wax. Thoughts on the following?:
20% Carnauba wax
20% Soy wax
10% Cocoa Butter
17% Shea Butter
13% CO
13% Apricot kernel
6% Meadowfoam
1% other
 
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I didn't like rice bran wax in mine.

Was also looking for vegan alternatives. In reverse, carnauba and candelila are expensive here (but I haven't checked in a while). I don't mind the vegans looking for vegan lotion bars but the carnivores who want vegan products make me roll my eyes lol

Like the people wanting palm free everything else but the food they eat is chock full of palm products - but I'm not discussing that here, ever. LOL

I have to find my notebook to try n remember why I didn't like rice bran wax. I think one reason is it reminds me of lipstick vs. the yummy scent my beeswax has. I'm also wondering if it's also because I'm just so used to the beeswax one LOL

Sorry KiwiMoose, that was long haha
It’s so funny your post made me think of how we pick our battles. 11 years ago I read a book called Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. I stopped eating meat when I finished. ( and there are hunters in our family) I still eat fish, but I purposely don’t read books about fisheries lol. I don’t use animal fats 🙄 in my soap, except I do with goat milk…so it’s not vegan..I don’t use palm because I’ll dream of monkeys, but I use soy wax and I think of mutants 😭. I’m just rambling, but I sure appreciate you and everyone else on this forum respecting every soapers choices for whatever reason. One of the things I have learned here is the ‘civilians’ have no idea how the soapmakers’ brains work 😂
 

Kiti Williams

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I didn't like rice bran wax in mine.

Was also looking for vegan alternatives. In reverse, carnauba and candelila are expensive here (but I haven't checked in a while). I don't mind the vegans looking for vegan lotion bars but the carnivores who want vegan products make me roll my eyes lol

Like the people wanting palm free everything else but the food they eat is chock full of palm products - but I'm not discussing that here, ever. LOL

I have to find my notebook to try n remember why I didn't like rice bran wax. I think one reason is it reminds me of lipstick vs. the yummy scent my beeswax has. I'm also wondering if it's also because I'm just so used to the beeswax one LOL

Sorry KiwiMoose, that was long haha

I use Cocoa Butter {dissented}, Bees Wax, and ethically sourced Palm oil for my Vegan Lotion Bars. the PO is a bit high in price, but I know the area it comes from. It is the same place I get Palm Nuts for my Macaw.
 

Dawni

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@Basil yeah, we pick our own battles and I refuse to do battle regarding palm haha. Because then I'd have to argue about the coconut oil industry, which isn't as bad as palm, but yeah.. I'd rather just not lol. I hope I don't upset anyone with that comment though I belatedly see how it can, if taken negatively.

Thoughts on the following?:
20% Carnauba wax
20% Soy wax
10% Cocoa Butter
17% Shea Butter
13% CO
13% Apricot kernel
6% Meadowfoam
1% other
Looks like a very luxurious lotion bar!

I have no idea how soy wax feels in a lotion bar - I don't know if I wanna try the 464 I have (still can't find the pure one you use) and find it feels like rubbing a candle on myself lol - so I can't comment on that.

I can comment on coconut oil though. For a humid climate like mine, I completely scrapped it coz it took too long to absorb and was too sticky while waiting. Just throwing that out there..

Let us know how the carnauba goes 😊
 
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@Dawni - lol it didn't feel like rubbing candle on me (at least no more so that I expect beeswax would)
So as a rule - do you all use over 70% 'hard' fats? In our summer I would not classify CO as a hard one, because it is liquid at room temp in summer. I see @Kiti Williams yours is all hard fats. Maybe this is where I am going wrong? I currently have 33% liquid oils in the mix ( including the CO).
 

Dawni

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Good to know about the soy wax lol I should try mine then instead of letting this waste. At least for Dustin's dad if he ever gets a chance to come home (covid issues lol) anytime soon. I wonder how different the 415 is from 464 if not in soap. Or candles haha

My liquid oils are at 22% combined, and I use 3 butters, with cocoa at 23% and the other 2 at 14% each. Rest is beeswax. I tried the general rule of equal amounts of wax/butters/oils and it was too soft for this climate.

For example, weather forecast puts temps at 29-32C throughout the week with humidity at 70-78%. Yesterday was 90% humidity at 33C and we call December cool. LOL

Someone here explained to me some years back that for lotion bars amounts don't need to total 100% so when it's summer I drop in a few (less than 5g each) extra grams of cocoa butter and beeswax. By summer I mean temps ranging from 38C to high 40s and low 50s in some places.
 
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Good to know about the soy wax lol I should try mine then instead of letting this waste. At least for Dustin's dad if he ever gets a chance to come home (covid issues lol) anytime soon. I wonder how different the 415 is from 464 if not in soap. Or candles haha

My liquid oils are at 22% combined, and I use 3 butters, with cocoa at 23% and the other 2 at 14% each. Rest is beeswax. I tried the general rule of equal amounts of wax/butters/oils and it was too soft for this climate.

For example, weather forecast puts temps at 29-32C throughout the week with humidity at 70-78%. Yesterday was 90% humidity at 33C and we call December cool. LOL

Someone here explained to me some years back that for lotion bars amounts don't need to total 100% so when it's summer I drop in a few (less than 5g each) extra grams of cocoa butter and beeswax. By summer I mean temps ranging from 38C to high 40s and low 50s in some places.
Well we are certainly not as hot as that here, but presently upstairs our house (where the lotion bar is sitting in my bathroom, we have been getting up to the low 30s lately, and with circa 80% humidity. The outside temp is only about 25 degrees but we have a gable roof and heat rises too, making it really hot upstairs.

So I'm thinking now:
20% Carnauba wax
20% Soy wax
20% Cocoa Butter
15% Shea Butter
8% CO
10% Apricot kernel
6% Meadowfoam
1% other

@Zing - what do you reckon? No banging and slapping required for lotion bars, so perhaps you are not interested? 😂
 
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Dawni

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For me personally, this might drag a bit with 40% waxes. I think I started with 35% and went lower to less than 30%. It's up to you.

Try one tiny batch and see! If something needs to be added remelt a bar and up something and take notes n do the math after lol
 
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For me personally, this might drag a bit with 40% waxes. I think I started with 35% and went lower to less than 30%. It's up to you.

Try one tiny batch and see! If something needs to be added remelt a bar and up something and take notes n do the math after lol
OK - increase my butters and reduce the waxes to 35% to start? I currently have 40% soy wax and it's far from draggy. But again, it could be the climate change coming into summer here. My previous batch was perfect.
 

Kiti Williams

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@Dawni - lol it didn't feel like rubbing candle on me (at least no more so that I expect beeswax would)
So as a rule - do you all use over 70% 'hard' fats? In our summer I would not classify CO as a hard one, because it is liquid at room temp in summer. I see @Kiti Williams yours is all hard fats. Maybe this is where I am going wrong? I currently have 33% liquid oils in the mix ( including the CO).

You can purchase CO that has a 93 degree melt zone. Mine is a 76 degree and it holds up to our summers in PA. All had fats gives the bar a nice solid feel, and holding in your hands will cause a slight melt so you can spread the product around. Mine has been used, unscented, for week old babies in our local NICU to combat mummy skin.
 

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