Vitamin E - Does it survive Saponification?

[PatrickH]

Have there been any real scientific test results on this yet for vitamin E or any other vitamins that are naturaly found in oils?
I tried searching the forum, got no results.
Googles is mixed results that are mostly opinions.
One may choose a specific oil that is loaded with all kinds of good vitamins, but if it doesn't survive Lye, then there really is no purpose of choosing a oil largly based on vitamin content.
You would think since soap is pretty popular and most everyone on the planet has been using for a very long time, there would be alot of studies on it.
There is alot of detailed studies on so many stupid things out there, you would think soap would have alot of scientific facts behind it more then just the basic chemical saponification process.

 

[PatrickH]

Another thing I wanted to add is if these vitamins do survive the soap process, couldn't you just empty a vitamin capsule and have even more vitamins in your soap?
When one claims to love a type of oil because it's rich in vitamins or a specific vitamin and it's claimed to be soo good for your skin, add a supplement to your oils then you have even more?

I don't believe it would myself, but I wanted to bring it up since what is being said or claimed vs what is real and true.
Like when someone says they add 4% of something and say it's so good for the skin and that their skin feel so good from it, it kinda leads others who don't know any better to believe it, then it gets passed on, then pretty soon, you have a large percentage of people believing and teaching others false info. Not much at say 4% that touches you while being washed off at the same time is going to do much of anything at all..

Kinda like adding 1/2 tsp of activated charcoal to soap and all it's claims. Well, the super fine powder is already fully absorbed it's maximum capacity, you lose every bit of what it claimed to be doing once it soaked up whatever it's absorbing sitting in oils, FO, EO and anything else.
Not to get off topic from my own post, but that's the type of claims I'm trying to sift out with vitamin claims in soap after a couple months of cure time.

 

[earlene]

Kevin Dunn has done lots of studies on soap. He wrote Scientific Soapmaking and it's a very good book for a soaper to have as reference. He also does presentations (aka lectures, but he is such a charismatic lecturer, the word does not do justice to the presentation) and I have been to two of them at Soapmaking conferences. Here is his bio if you want to know his credentials: http://www.hsc.edu/kevin-dunn

I highly suggest you read as much he has written as possible, as many of your questions about the science around soapmaking, he has answers for and scientific data to back that up.

 

[lmosca]

Most probably not.

If we look at the structure of Vit E (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_E) you will see that its anti-oxidant activity is given by the phenol-ether moiety, the ring with the OH and O attached to it. This part is very electron rich and that's where the antioxidant property of Vit E comes from (which is the ability to loosen up an electron and give it away).
In a basic environment (like soap) the OH group (or phenolic group) loses an hydrogen (phenols are acidic) and transforms into a phenolate (ring-O-minus), that is, we put a negative charge in a place that already had excess electrons (which are negative charges).
This has the effect of increasing the antioxidant power of Vit E. But, as anything in excess, it makes everything worse. By increasing the antioxidant power, we are making it easier and faster to happen. Our new super-vitamin E now wants to react and anti-oxidize (reduce) just about everything floating around. Reaction with atmospheric oxygen will be very fast, and all the good vitamin E in the soap will disappear quickly.

This is true for many other things, Vit E, chemically, is not that dissimilar from vanillin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanillin), as the type of chemical groups present in the molecule. And we all know that vanillin discolors to brown, in soaps, in a matter of hours and days. This is due to the same process, the vanillin reacts with the base and turns into something that wants to be oxidized by oxygen pretty quickly.

Vit C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid_(molecular_aspects)) will behave the same, as it is perfectly stable in the solid state, but starts oxidizing quite swiftly once dissolved (in neutral water exposed to air, Vit C half-life is only a few hours!).

Of other compounds that people might want to be active in soaps, not many survive the hell that is lye, combined with oxygen. Vit A should be pretty stable, but not panthenol (Provitamin B5) and not even niacinamide (Vit B3), this would be hydrolyzed to form nicotinic acid, which was found to be irritant.
Tannins (like polyphenols of tea, coffee, and wine, or citrus peels) will behave just like vanillin, and get oxidized and lose any potency in a surprisingly swift way. While flavonoids will survive the basic environment, however, anthocyanidins for example of berry extracts, will be destroyed by the lye, because they contain the pyrylium group.

Phytosterols found in oils, however, will survive unscathed!
Of their efficacy on the skin, from soaps, however, I have my doubts.

If I had to choose, I will try to incorporate those beneficial compounds in body oils, or body butter, and for water soluble stuff, like Vit C B3 B5, and polyphenols, I would choose lotions, toners, and mists, since they contain a water phase as a carrier.

Cheers!
L

 

[lmosca]

Kinda like adding 1/2 tsp of activated charcoal to soap and all it's claims. Well, the super fine powder is already fully absorbed it's maximum capacity, you lose every bit of what it claimed to be doing once it soaked up whatever it's absorbing sitting in oils, FO, EO and anything else.

I totally agree with this statement, btw. Activated charcoal is good for nothing but color and label appeal IMHO.
Activated charcoal is a dual-faced Janus. It can adsorb lots of low polarity stuff (like oils and fats), but only when it is in a high polarity environment (like water), we call this the hydrophobic effect. And it can adsorb a lot of high-polarity stuff (like ions, alcohols etc...), but only when in a high polarity environment (let's call it the solvophobic effect). Once they are in, activated charcoal really does not like to release them. When we put activated charcoal (at a fraction of a percent) into something that is essentially a soup of water, oils, and salts, we saturate it with whatever is in there. Also, smaller molecules, for example, the one contained in fragrances and EOs, will be adsorbed stronger than the larger, relatively more by-standers molecules like triglycerides.

Once we put this saturated charcoal on our skin, the oils and dirt on the skin will literally have no place to go. Replacing the adsorbate requires far too much energy. In the lab sometimes we have to activate charcoal for special things, we do that at 90 Celsius and in a very high vacuum. Not usual conditions find in a shower!

 

[cmzaha]

I totally agree with this statement, btw. Activated charcoal is good for nothing but color and label appeal IMHO.
Activated charcoal is a dual-faced Janus. It can adsorb lots of low polarity stuff (like oils and fats), but only when it is in a high polarity environment (like water), we call this the hydrophobic effect. And it can adsorb a lot of high-polarity stuff (like ions, alcohols etc...), but only when in a high polarity environment (let's call it the solvophobic effect). Once they are in, activated charcoal really does not like to release them. When we put activated charcoal (at a fraction of a percent) into something that is essentially a soup of water, oils, and salts, we saturate it with whatever is in there. Also, smaller molecules, for example, the one contained in fragrances and EOs, will be adsorbed stronger than the larger, relatively more by-standers molecules like triglycerides.

Once we put this saturated charcoal on our skin, the oils and dirt on the skin will literally have no place to go. Replacing the adsorbate requires far too much energy. In the lab sometimes we have to activate charcoal for special things, we do that at 90 Celsius and in a very high vacuum. Not usual conditions find in a shower!

I really never rely on anything surviving the lye monster, but the label appeal is great...power of suggestion. I will note that I never make claims

 

[cmzaha]

Please put back the limited time edit button. I meant to say above I do not depend on anything surviving the lye monster.

 

[lsg]

I changed it for you. If you clicked the edit button, it probably just showed the quote. I clicked on the "More Options," at the bottom of the window that opened and that let me edit your comment.

 

[PatrickH]

lmosca -

Thank you for all that detailed information and taking the time to write all that.

That was great information and answered alot for me and I'm sure will for many others who read this topic.

Reading post in other groups all over was driving me nuts with people saying how good a soap is because it has so many vitamins and nutrients like it was a healthy multigrain bar loaded with fruits and nuts and that the pinch of AC made thier face feel so clean and refreshed by absorbing all the toxins from their face and skin..
I was just dying to hear some real scientific facts behind these claims that I felt where not true anyway, but I didn't know the scientific facts behind it all.

Your post shed alot of light on the subject for me and I thank you for that. I was starting to think I was the only one who had doubts about the so many claims I been reading about homemade soaps.

 

[PatrickH]

earlene -

I will keep a eye out for that book, thank you.

 

[PatrickH]

cmzaha -

Yup. I've even had people impressed when they see Olive oil and Cocoa Butter on the label and AC.. lol
I make no claims it does anything, but if they ask, I tell them AC is only good for color and the other oils are just what makes a good soap.

 

[SaltedFig]

Vitamin E might appear on the label of soap if it was added to the oils (prior to being made into soap) to help prevent rancidity, and the soap maker lists it as an ingredient.

I've had my local supplier state that the activated charcoal is a fad (and even applied as a face mask it's relatively useless, especially compared to the muds), so that ties in with the label appeal (I like it for colour, so I'm happy with it being a fad ... makes it cheap for me and I don't have to make my own so much).