trying a water discount

[normajean999]

Hi all. So I read the article about water discount: http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf

I wanted to figure out what my lye solution percentage is based on the numbers given in soap calc and attempt to reduce the water slightly.

So I have a recipe for 60% lard 40% OO. The numbers in the soap calc recipe come out to:

total Oil 1200g
water 38%
SF 5%
Lye 158.34g
water 456g

So to calc the current lye solution:
lye weight / (lye weight + water weight) is:
158.34 / (158.34 + 456) = .257

So I have a 25% lye solution right?

What is a safe amount to increase the lye solution % by in the first attempt? A 1% increase or is that not going to make much difference?

 

[cmzaha]

Problem with discounting is formulas, fo's, temps all come into play. Because one formula works with a discount does not mean the next one will. Keep good notes with your formulas and fo's you have used. With this formula and a non accelerating fo you can probably use a 30-32% lye solution. In soap calc you can put in what strength lye solution you want. I do not guarantee your being able to work with it but you should be okay. 1% discount is not going to teach much or make much difference.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, that's right, Norma Jean. I'd call it 26%, but close enough!

If you want to experiment with more concentrated lye solutions, it will be less confusing and easier in the long run if you start using "lye concentration" or "water:lye ratio" rather than "water as % of oils". I can give the math explanation if you want, but I'm just going to leave the long-winded math stuff alone for now -- it's likely to confuse more than help.

A lye concentration of 25% is rather low for CP soap -- it is easy for the soap batter emulsion to "break" and separate in the mold when you get too much below about 27-28% lye concentration. The risk is increased if the soap heats up in the mold and heads toward gelling. I'd increase your minimum lye concentration to 28% to avoid this trouble, so you've got a 2-3% increase in lye concentration right there!

From what I see, a fair number of people who use a more concentrated lye solution use 30% to 33% lye concentration. A 40% concentration is sometimes used for soap with a lot of liquid oils in it (sunflower, olive, avocado, etc.) I'd stick with 28% to 33% for recipes with solid fats in them (lard, tallow, palm, palm kernel, coconut, etc.)

You can go as high as 50%, but I'd hesitate to do that. It is much harder to dissolve the NaOH completely when it's that concentrated. Also the soap may come to trace very quickly, especially if you are using solid fats in the recipe.

 

[normajean999]

Problem with discounting is formulas, fo's, temps all come into play. Because one formula works with a discount does not mean the next one will. Keep good notes with your formulas and fo's you have used. With this formula and a non accelerating fo you can probably use a 30-32% lye solution. In soap calc you can put in what strength lye solution you want. I do not guarantee your being able to work with it but you should be okay. 1% discount is not going to teach much or make much difference.

Sorry I should have said I am not using anything for scenting as I have skin allergies so mine are all plain right now. I may try that later when I know what I am doing and not wasting $ on ingredients for batches that don't turn out. But I'll keep that in mind when I do start using FO or EO. Thanks.

 

[normajean999]

Yes, that's right, Norma Jean. I'd call it 26%, but close enough!

If you want to experiment with more concentrated lye solutions, it will be less confusing and easier in the long run if you start using "lye concentration" or "water:lye ratio" rather than "water as % of oils". I can give the math explanation if you want, but I'm just going to leave the long-winded math stuff alone for now -- it's likely to confuse more than help.

A lye concentration of 25% is rather low for CP soap -- it is easy for the soap batter emulsion to "break" and separate in the mold when you get too much below about 27-28% lye concentration. The risk is increased if the soap heats up in the mold and heads toward gelling. I'd increase your minimum lye concentration to 28% to avoid this trouble, so you've got a 2-3% increase in lye concentration right there!

From what I see, a fair number of people who use a more concentrated lye solution use 30% to 33% lye concentration. A 40% concentration is sometimes used for soap with a lot of liquid oils in it (sunflower, olive, avocado, etc.) I'd stick with 28% to 33% for recipes with solid fats in them (lard, tallow, palm, palm kernel, coconut, etc.)

You can go as high as 50%, but I'd hesitate to do that. It is much harder to dissolve the NaOH completely when it's that concentrated. Also the soap may come to trace very quickly, especially if you are using solid fats in the recipe.

Thanks for the info. I think I'll go with 28-30% then as I am not adding other stuff right now and I'm not worried about how quickly it traces. I don't care what it looks like lol. I just want to wash with it for now. I'll worry about looks later.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'd say you'll do very well with those numbers ... let us know how your experiments turn out, okay?

 

[normajean999]

I'd say you'll do very well with those numbers ... let us know how your experiments turn out, okay?

Will do!

 

[normajean999]

reporting back

So just following up on this. This worked out. No major issues. I used a 30% lye solution. Mixed when oil was 99 and lye solution was 101 degrees. I did decide to add some cocoa powder and paprika to color. I separated at light trace and sifted them in and used the SB to mix. It got thick pretty thick. So now I know if I want it thinner to hand mix. For my mold I am using the box from my SB. I cut the box in such a way that the top was a flap/lid so that I could fold it down and tape it closed (to prevent bulging in the middle. I am expecting my new silicone mold in the mail today, yay!). Then I put it outside to avoid gel. It was probably 15 degrees out, so very cold. After a few hours I moved it into the unheated garage. And the next morning I put it in the house before I went to work. When I opened it after work it did have some cracking on the top. So did it get hot or did I freeze it and cause the cracks? Anyways when I cut it (24hrs later) is seemed to crumble some and pieces came off as I my knife got toward the lower section of the brick. I wondered if it was the bottom part of the soap that was harder or if it was just from my knife splitting apart the pieces and putting more pressure as the thickest part of the knife (the top) moved down the log (like a wedge) causing the pieces to spread and break at the bottom. So I turned it side ways and cut it and the same thing happened at the bottom of the slicing. So it was just the knife causing it. I just have a basic butcher knife but my previous batches did not do that. So I left some of the brick uncut and tried again the next day. I only have a couple pieces left to cut but it did seems to slice better with minimal breakage. I have kept a bar out and will weight it each week as well as my other batches from now on. Anyways that's it!

 

[seven]

cracks are usually a sign of overheating. spices like paprika can generate heat, so does the sugar in cocoa powder (i believe it has sugar in it? not sure). but yeah, anything with sugar generates heat, and so does most of spices.

 

[normajean999]

cracks are usually a sign of overheating. spices like paprika can generate heat, so does the sugar in cocoa powder (i believe it has sugar in it? not sure). but yeah, anything with sugar generates heat, and so does most of spices.

Hmm that's interesting. I didn't read anything about paprika or cocoa powder generating heat. It is unsweetened cocoa powder. But maybe cocoa has natural sugar in it. However it was the top layer with the paprika that cracked. So it would have to be the paprika then.

 

[Seawolfe]

I just had a batch that did that crumbly thing. It was the first time I had a batch that didn't gel (by accident, it's cold in the house). My thinking was I should have left it longer, but what do I know?