Tell me about Salt bars...why great?
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Salt bar questions
I am new to the forum and have been reading this thread as I have been considering making a loaf of bars with dead sea salt and I have a ton of questions:
1. I wanted to add the salt after trace as an exfolient and I have read that many people commented on it being to scratchy, that's okay, I can grind my coarse salt finer...my question is why not dead sea salt? As an herbalist, I prefer this for it nutrient and healing qualities. Why is it not ideal for the soap?
2. The recipe I use has 40% shea butter, 20 something % CO, some argan oil and castor oil. Will the castor oil balance out my shea butter for lather? What will the Argan oil do? I'm willing to make some adjustments but I really like the Shea butter in the recipe, any suggestions? I want a good conditioning bar.
3. My recipe comes to trace very quickly, this will be great for folding in the salt but I tend to have a race against time getting my mica coloring in. I was taught to mix them in a small amount of oil first and then add at trace...I find most of it ends up clumping and a lot stays in the bowl. I really want to separate the mixture at a light trace and add the mica in dry and then mix...any experience on how this will work? I planned on adding the EO after the mica.
4. What is the advantage to coconut milk? Do you add the lye directly to it? Do you need to have a 50% mix first to use it?
5. If I want to slow down my trace, how much more water or fluid should I add to start?
6. My recipe make a very hard soap, I've heard several comments about the timing of cutting the loaf. I plan on making a loaf for this recipe. How long before I unmold it? The typical 24 hours? and what are the secrets to cutting it? Is it just a timing issue? I do have some molds but I love the look of a loaf bar.
7. I use Rosehip EO with my other EO's for medicinal purposes, is this accelerating my trace?
Excuse the spelling errors but BTW, where's the spell check here?
Sorry about all the questions...but I DID warn you :roll:
I am new to the forum and have been reading this thread as I have been considering making a loaf of bars with dead sea salt and I have a ton of questions:
1. I wanted to add the salt after trace as an exfolient and I have read that many people commented on it being to scratchy, that's okay, I can grind my coarse salt finer...my question is why not dead sea salt? As an herbalist, I prefer this for it nutrient and healing qualities. Why is it not ideal for the soap?
2. The recipe I use has 40% shea butter, 20 something % CO, some argan oil and castor oil. Will the castor oil balance out my shea butter for lather? What will the Argan oil do? I'm willing to make some adjustments but I really like the Shea butter in the recipe, any suggestions? I want a good conditioning bar.
3. My recipe comes to trace very quickly, this will be great for folding in the salt but I tend to have a race against time getting my mica coloring in. I was taught to mix them in a small amount of oil first and then add at trace...I find most of it ends up clumping and a lot stays in the bowl. I really want to separate the mixture at a light trace and add the mica in dry and then mix...any experience on how this will work? I planned on adding the EO after the mica.
4. What is the advantage to coconut milk? Do you add the lye directly to it? Do you need to have a 50% mix first to use it?
5. If I want to slow down my trace, how much more water or fluid should I add to start?
6. My recipe make a very hard soap, I've heard several comments about the timing of cutting the loaf. I plan on making a loaf for this recipe. How long before I unmold it? The typical 24 hours? and what are the secrets to cutting it? Is it just a timing issue? I do have some molds but I love the look of a loaf bar.
7. I use Rosehip EO with my other EO's for medicinal purposes, is this accelerating my trace?
Excuse the spelling errors but BTW, where's the spell check here?
Sorry about all the questions...but I DID warn you :roll:
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Obsidian
Well-Known Member
1.The mineral content of dead sea salt is different then other sea salts, it will make wet, weepy bar. You could probably use a little, say 10% of your total salt amount. Grinding coarse salt doesn't do anything except make fine sharp bits. Bigger salt isn't scrubby, its scratchy and can slice the hell out of you. Buy some proper fine salt.
2. 20% coconut oil is not near enough for a proper salt bars, try 80% coconut, 20% shea with 25%-50% salt. Personally I dislike shea in salt bars, it really reduces the lather imo.
3. I add my scent to my oils then separate at emulsion so I have plenty of time to get colors mixed in. Add salt in last but don't wait for thick trace. Salt usually accelerates trace, you wouldn't want a thick mess you have to smoosh into the mold.
4. Coconut milk makes the lather extra creamy. I use a 50% lye solution and add the coconut milk directly to the oils.
5. I've always used soapcalc default water for salt bars. I don't think adding more would really help a fast trace.
6. Depending on how hard your recipe is and how much salt you use, you generally cut anywhere from 1-4 hours. As soon as its firm enough to unmold and cut, you need to do so. It will still be hot and caustic so wear gloves. I really do recommend individual molds for your first salt batch.
2. 20% coconut oil is not near enough for a proper salt bars, try 80% coconut, 20% shea with 25%-50% salt. Personally I dislike shea in salt bars, it really reduces the lather imo.
3. I add my scent to my oils then separate at emulsion so I have plenty of time to get colors mixed in. Add salt in last but don't wait for thick trace. Salt usually accelerates trace, you wouldn't want a thick mess you have to smoosh into the mold.
4. Coconut milk makes the lather extra creamy. I use a 50% lye solution and add the coconut milk directly to the oils.
5. I've always used soapcalc default water for salt bars. I don't think adding more would really help a fast trace.
6. Depending on how hard your recipe is and how much salt you use, you generally cut anywhere from 1-4 hours. As soon as its firm enough to unmold and cut, you need to do so. It will still be hot and caustic so wear gloves. I really do recommend individual molds for your first salt batch.
I have never used Dead Sea salt b/c there are so many posts here about it making your soap ooze. Based on that, it would probably not be a good idea unless you are determined to test it out yourself.
Grinding coarse salt is not a good idea, it will still be scratchy/cutty, just use the fine stuff.
I would save the Argan oil for something w/o lye, it will be consumed/wasted with it.
That is a lot of shea. Most people who use butters max out at about 10%, although opinions do vary.
Unless you use a slow tracing recipe, salt bars trace really quickly. If you want to swirl/color, I would either change your recipe or plan on a single color soap.
I usually cut brine/salt bars w/in a few hours, I watch them v. carefully. 24 hrs would be way too long.
Oops, cross post w/Obsidian.
Grinding coarse salt is not a good idea, it will still be scratchy/cutty, just use the fine stuff.
I would save the Argan oil for something w/o lye, it will be consumed/wasted with it.
That is a lot of shea. Most people who use butters max out at about 10%, although opinions do vary.
Unless you use a slow tracing recipe, salt bars trace really quickly. If you want to swirl/color, I would either change your recipe or plan on a single color soap.
I usually cut brine/salt bars w/in a few hours, I watch them v. carefully. 24 hrs would be way too long.
Oops, cross post w/Obsidian.
Wow, is that ever sweet, Janzo.
Dead Sea Salt- ditto what Obsidian and not_ally said. 
Grinding salt for salt bars- also ditto what Obsidian and not_ally said. From what some here on the forum have experienced, grinding salt with a typical household grinder makes sharp shards out of the salt, and when put into salt soap, it can actually cut you when you rub the soap on your skin. The fine grind of salt that you can buy at the store has much more rounded edges. I would use that intead.
Regarding your formula- I'm going to sound like a broken record, but ditto what Obsidian said.
20% coconut is not nearly enough for a salt bar if you want any kind of decent lather out of it (although 'decent' can be subjective, of course). Salt inhibits lather, and the large amount that is used in salt bars can outright kill it completely....unless you use a goodly amount of coconut oil to balance it out (coconut oil soaps are one of the few soaps that will actually lather in salt water. Others are PKO and Babassu).
Re: castor: castor oil actually won't add any lather to a soap at all, but it will enhance the lather that is already present from other oils such as coconut, PKO or babassu. It gives them a certain 'oomph', if you will.
I agree with not_ally in regards to the argan. I would save that for leave-in products such as lotion, etc...
Re: when to add salt: I always add mine at the very last right before I pour into my mold- when my soap is at medium to med-thick trace. I should mention that I don't do fancy swirls with my salt bars. I color them one color up front, or I do a simple and quick ITP swirl before I pour. I add my FO's up front to my oils, by the way.
Re: coconut milk: I can't speak for others, but I add it to mine because it gives a lovely depth to the fluffy bubbles made by my 100% coconut oil. I mix my lye with water 50/50, and add my remaining water amount as coconut milk fortified with enough coconut milk powder to bring the milk concentration level up to 100% for my batch. This I add to my oils before the lye solution.
Use SoapCalc's default "full water" amount when making salt bars (or any kinds of bars) if you want to slow down trace. I personally wouldn't use more than a 'full water' amount, though. Too much water will give you warped bars during cure. And too much water can also cause separation in your batter.
I cut mine as soon as they firm back up from full gel- usually within 2 hours, more or less, after pour. The soap is still quite hot at this time, so I use gloves.
Me, too!
IrishLass
Grinding salt for salt bars- also ditto what Obsidian and not_ally said. From what some here on the forum have experienced, grinding salt with a typical household grinder makes sharp shards out of the salt, and when put into salt soap, it can actually cut you when you rub the soap on your skin. The fine grind of salt that you can buy at the store has much more rounded edges. I would use that intead.
Regarding your formula- I'm going to sound like a broken record, but ditto what Obsidian said.
20% coconut is not nearly enough for a salt bar if you want any kind of decent lather out of it (although 'decent' can be subjective, of course). Salt inhibits lather, and the large amount that is used in salt bars can outright kill it completely....unless you use a goodly amount of coconut oil to balance it out (coconut oil soaps are one of the few soaps that will actually lather in salt water. Others are PKO and Babassu). Re: castor: castor oil actually won't add any lather to a soap at all, but it will enhance the lather that is already present from other oils such as coconut, PKO or babassu. It gives them a certain 'oomph', if you will.
I agree with not_ally in regards to the argan. I would save that for leave-in products such as lotion, etc...
Re: when to add salt: I always add mine at the very last right before I pour into my mold- when my soap is at medium to med-thick trace. I should mention that I don't do fancy swirls with my salt bars. I color them one color up front, or I do a simple and quick ITP swirl before I pour. I add my FO's up front to my oils, by the way.
Re: coconut milk: I can't speak for others, but I add it to mine because it gives a lovely depth to the fluffy bubbles made by my 100% coconut oil. I mix my lye with water 50/50, and add my remaining water amount as coconut milk fortified with enough coconut milk powder to bring the milk concentration level up to 100% for my batch. This I add to my oils before the lye solution.
Use SoapCalc's default "full water" amount when making salt bars (or any kinds of bars) if you want to slow down trace. I personally wouldn't use more than a 'full water' amount, though. Too much water will give you warped bars during cure. And too much water can also cause separation in your batter.
I cut mine as soon as they firm back up from full gel- usually within 2 hours, more or less, after pour. The soap is still quite hot at this time, so I use gloves.
Me, too!
IrishLass
Dead sea salt at 10% will still kill your lather, it has to be kept at a very small percentage. Grinding salt is NOT a good way for salt bars, I learned that several years ago and have posted about it numerous times. A good burr grinder can do the job but who wants to use a good burr coffee grinder for salt. Not me. My Rocky Burr only grinds coffee beans! I even find fine gray sea salt to be to scratchy. Not all salts are the same. You can use fine table salt, non iodized for a lovely salt bar. One of the most wonderful salts I have had was pearl salt but can no longer find it at a price affordable for soaping. When San Francisco Salt and Bath closed theirs out I purchased 50#'s and it is not all gone :-(
Butters including Shea will deter the lather in salt bars. I love 80% coconut oil 20% castor with a 15-17% superfat. Although the 80/20 does not make a long lasting salt bar it is really nice. I do water discount using a 31% Lye concentration not water as % of oil, with 80-100% salt. If you want added exfoliation, salt is naturally exfoliating and does not need to be scrubbie, you can add in oatmeal.
Butters including Shea will deter the lather in salt bars. I love 80% coconut oil 20% castor with a 15-17% superfat. Although the 80/20 does not make a long lasting salt bar it is really nice. I do water discount using a 31% Lye concentration not water as % of oil, with 80-100% salt. If you want added exfoliation, salt is naturally exfoliating and does not need to be scrubbie, you can add in oatmeal.
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If you want to add salt, you need a significant uptic in coconut oil. As far as I know, saponified coconut oil is the only one that can lather in the presence of salt. I've heard rumors that babasu oil might be able to as well, but no confirmation.
Obsidian
Well-Known Member
Yes, babassu will lather in salt water just like coconut. I was given a bar made with babassu, the lather was a bit different then coconut but just as thick & creamy.
Wow, thank you all for the quick responses and the great education! I've only been making my own soap for a little over a year and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know.
When I used the word "grinder", it was because I was too lazy to describe my appliances. I make my own flour from wheat and my own powdered sugar from granulated...very high powered motors. That being said I can understand that it wouldn't take away from the sharpness of the grain, so I will skip it, thank you.
Breaks my heart that I can't use the dead sea salt cause I always have more than ten pounds of it around...but I do have regular sea salt so I will use that.
Thank you for the tips on the argan oil....that stuff is EXPENSIVE and I have only just used it in a new soap recipe I'm trying...I'll keep it for lotions from now on.
I find it ironic that most of my soaps...no...ALL of my soaps with the exception of the past week have been CO and OO predominately...I just ordered a bucket of shea butter to mix it up and try something new...of course the thing that I want to try now precludes it...ah well.
I always make soap and bath salts and have them as gifts for my holiday dinners and I wanted to get cracking so that they cure well and with over 30 people to make for...everyone having their favorite scents ect, it always takes a while.
Thank you for the advice about getting soap to emulsify and not to trace...I thought that if I didn't get to trace before adding my EO and micas it would keep the soap from saponifying. I still hate mixing my micas with oil but at least now I will have plenty of time to separate and add my colors.
One more question please...I have never superfatted and was taught it wasn't needed, so I know nothing about it, can someone direct me to a good thread to learn about it.
Thank you all again
When I used the word "grinder", it was because I was too lazy to describe my appliances. I make my own flour from wheat and my own powdered sugar from granulated...very high powered motors. That being said I can understand that it wouldn't take away from the sharpness of the grain, so I will skip it, thank you.
Breaks my heart that I can't use the dead sea salt cause I always have more than ten pounds of it around...but I do have regular sea salt so I will use that.
Thank you for the tips on the argan oil....that stuff is EXPENSIVE and I have only just used it in a new soap recipe I'm trying...I'll keep it for lotions from now on.
I find it ironic that most of my soaps...no...ALL of my soaps with the exception of the past week have been CO and OO predominately...I just ordered a bucket of shea butter to mix it up and try something new...of course the thing that I want to try now precludes it...ah well.
I always make soap and bath salts and have them as gifts for my holiday dinners and I wanted to get cracking so that they cure well and with over 30 people to make for...everyone having their favorite scents ect, it always takes a while.
Thank you for the advice about getting soap to emulsify and not to trace...I thought that if I didn't get to trace before adding my EO and micas it would keep the soap from saponifying. I still hate mixing my micas with oil but at least now I will have plenty of time to separate and add my colors.
One more question please...I have never superfatted and was taught it wasn't needed, so I know nothing about it, can someone direct me to a good thread to learn about it.
Thank you all again
You may be thinking about superfatting after trace to control what superfat oil you use. With hp you have more control on what superfat oil you use after the saponification phase is completed, but in cp the lye will take what it wants. When you use soap calc the default superfat is 5%, which means you are using less NaOH than you would if you type in 1% so some oil remains unsaponified. For salt bars you would probably be best off if you use 17-20% superfat until you work out what you like best.
By the way, I mix my micas in glycerin, that way I do not worry about extra oil or taking the oil from my batch. I do not always know exactly how much color I want so do not like using batch oils for colorants. Glycerin will act as a solvent for all colors including oil titanium dioxide
By the way, I mix my micas in glycerin, that way I do not worry about extra oil or taking the oil from my batch. I do not always know exactly how much color I want so do not like using batch oils for colorants. Glycerin will act as a solvent for all colors including oil titanium dioxide
SF is one of those things that is really, truly individual. I have super dry skin - I think there is a genetic description of it, I can't remember the name - so I SF at 7-8% for most things, sometimes higher, depending on additives. My general recipe is fairly hard (also pretty moisturizing b/c I use a lot of lard) but less so than it would be w/a lower SF. That is OK w/me, b/c that is what I need. But I think I really am at one end of the spectrum. I have used soaps from friends that are great, perfect really for others, but maybe not SF'd enough for me and my scaly skin. It really does depend on you and your soaping needs ...
ETA: Also, everyone does colorants differently, but w/micas I usually keep a bit of the the oil mix out and mix the colors in them, in separate cups. If not liquid enough I sometimes add a teeny bit of of a light oil like SAO. I usually just go to emulsification before I separate for colors and then whisk or SB after that depending on how thick the color gets. Weirdly, the thickness can vary quite a bit, so it is good to be prepared.
ETA: Also, everyone does colorants differently, but w/micas I usually keep a bit of the the oil mix out and mix the colors in them, in separate cups. If not liquid enough I sometimes add a teeny bit of of a light oil like SAO. I usually just go to emulsification before I separate for colors and then whisk or SB after that depending on how thick the color gets. Weirdly, the thickness can vary quite a bit, so it is good to be prepared.
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Carolyn, thanks for the advice on the glycerin...I always have some on hand as a base for herbal medicines (ETOH based...yuk).
I will apologize for my ignorance but again...I really know NOTHING about SF. Why you do it, if you use the oils calculated in the recipe or extra, what oils to use. I was taught don't bother its not needed and my soaps have always come out fine...but if it can improve them or delay trace I'm ready to learn.
I did an internet search to try to learn, even went to you tube but I really don't understand why you use it...feeling stupid here for asking again but I really don't understand the how's and whys.
I will apologize for my ignorance but again...I really know NOTHING about SF. Why you do it, if you use the oils calculated in the recipe or extra, what oils to use. I was taught don't bother its not needed and my soaps have always come out fine...but if it can improve them or delay trace I'm ready to learn.
I did an internet search to try to learn, even went to you tube but I really don't understand why you use it...feeling stupid here for asking again but I really don't understand the how's and whys.
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Let us know your last recipe - all oils in weight and also the amount of lye in weight. Then we can work out if your recipe has a lye discount built in, that is to say that a certain % less lye is used than would be needed for all of the oils, so that a % of your oils do not turn in to salt.
Ok, I'll take a crack at *my* idea on SF, hopefully someone w/more actual scientific knowledge will chime in. SF - also you see it referred to as the "lye discount", same thing - is just the amount of extra oil that you add past the amount that is needed for actual saponification. Ie; a zero % superfat would technically take you just to saponification/having the oils and lye catalyze into soap - although the chemists here can tell you more about some of the extra fat that is built in to most calculators.
Adding oils after that point will increase the SF level, people do it to increase the amount of moisturizing in the soap. Of course there are limits to how much that will work, since soap is a wash off product, but for me, b/c of my dry skin, a higher SF does make my skin much less dry after a shower than a lower one. As noted, I SF at 7-8%, sometimes higher depending on additives. I'm not sure what the "average" would be, maybe closer to 5%? There are people here - Carolyn Z. is one - who use a lower SF to great effect. You just have to experiment w/what works best for your skin type, I think. Although if you have been soaping for a year and are happy w/your soaps the way they are, maybe no reason to change. It is always fun to dabble, though
ETA: A higher SF/less lye will generally slow trace, all other things being equal. But it will make your soap a bit softer as well.
Adding oils after that point will increase the SF level, people do it to increase the amount of moisturizing in the soap. Of course there are limits to how much that will work, since soap is a wash off product, but for me, b/c of my dry skin, a higher SF does make my skin much less dry after a shower than a lower one. As noted, I SF at 7-8%, sometimes higher depending on additives. I'm not sure what the "average" would be, maybe closer to 5%? There are people here - Carolyn Z. is one - who use a lower SF to great effect. You just have to experiment w/what works best for your skin type, I think. Although if you have been soaping for a year and are happy w/your soaps the way they are, maybe no reason to change. It is always fun to dabble, though
ETA: A higher SF/less lye will generally slow trace, all other things being equal. But it will make your soap a bit softer as well.
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thank you both for the response and N.A., thank you for the detailed explaination, that was EXACTLY what I was looking for.
Up until my last batch I would calculate 30 ounces of oils, mostly OO, C0 with a third small amount of palm oil, almond oil or something like that into soap calc and let them figure out the lye and I just ignored the SF. More recently my last two batches have included Shea butter or cocoa butter along with the standards, CO, OO. My last batch included a small amount of argan oil which, thanks to the advice here I will not be using again. I would pay most of my attention to the ranges to make sure it was cleansing enough, moisturizing enough ect. Mostly CO and OO have been the majority of my oil with the others calcuated in based on soap calcs ranges that met my expectation. With the exception of my first batch which seized because the OO I bought at costco was really a blend and I didn't read the label close enough. Since then I've never been unhappy with any batch I've made, none have been too drying as I have very sensative skin but then again none have been to bubbly as I only recently learned about castor oil. I don't think I have made the same batch twice as I'm still new to this and experimenting, so giving you a recipe for the past year or so is impossible but basically CO or OO at least 40% with CO or OO (depending on which oil I didn't use for the base) constituting 20-30 percent and than one of the others making up the remainder. I wanted to keep it simple so I learned a good foundation and just messed around with those two oils for the most part and using soap calc ranges to guide my finished product. After nearly two years I am really comfortable with those oils in a simple combination...now looking to expand my horizons. I never forgot my first successful batch 21 ounces OO with 9 ounces of CO...since it fit perfectly in my mold I've played around with the 30 ounce total ever since. Up until my last batch all my soaps were 80-90% of those two oils and then 10-20% of something I wanted to play with...not too scientific and probably lame but it gave me a comfort level as a basis to learn from.
Up until my last batch I would calculate 30 ounces of oils, mostly OO, C0 with a third small amount of palm oil, almond oil or something like that into soap calc and let them figure out the lye and I just ignored the SF. More recently my last two batches have included Shea butter or cocoa butter along with the standards, CO, OO. My last batch included a small amount of argan oil which, thanks to the advice here I will not be using again. I would pay most of my attention to the ranges to make sure it was cleansing enough, moisturizing enough ect. Mostly CO and OO have been the majority of my oil with the others calcuated in based on soap calcs ranges that met my expectation. With the exception of my first batch which seized because the OO I bought at costco was really a blend and I didn't read the label close enough. Since then I've never been unhappy with any batch I've made, none have been too drying as I have very sensative skin but then again none have been to bubbly as I only recently learned about castor oil. I don't think I have made the same batch twice as I'm still new to this and experimenting, so giving you a recipe for the past year or so is impossible but basically CO or OO at least 40% with CO or OO (depending on which oil I didn't use for the base) constituting 20-30 percent and than one of the others making up the remainder. I wanted to keep it simple so I learned a good foundation and just messed around with those two oils for the most part and using soap calc ranges to guide my finished product. After nearly two years I am really comfortable with those oils in a simple combination...now looking to expand my horizons. I never forgot my first successful batch 21 ounces OO with 9 ounces of CO...since it fit perfectly in my mold I've played around with the 30 ounce total ever since. Up until my last batch all my soaps were 80-90% of those two oils and then 10-20% of something I wanted to play with...not too scientific and probably lame but it gave me a comfort level as a basis to learn from.
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You know, soap is so uncomplicated and complicated at the same time! You probably already know all of this, but there are some basic rules that people before us (thank goodness) took the time to figure out. You are on the right track w/a mix of OO/CO/Palm (or, if you are not averse to animal fats, lard or tallow. Lard is the bomb, really.) I don't love huge amounts of OO b/c of the cure time and the lather, but some people do. CO is great for lather but if you have picky, dry skin like I do, it is best to keep it below 20% (I don't go above 15%, but that is just me.) Palm is good but I personally prefer lard, which I think is the perfect soaping oil, v. moisturizing, makes a light, hard, pretty bar. And it is cheap. Really, so perfect.
If you don't want to use animal fats and want some of the benefits of coconut w/o the stripping effect, Babassu oil and Palm Kernel oil are good substitutes, although when using PKO I like to mix it w/CO at about 10% each.
Castor does not make lather by itself, really, it just maximizes the effect of the oils that are in your recipe. So for me, it is one of the things that always go into the batch.
If you don't want to use animal fats and want some of the benefits of coconut w/o the stripping effect, Babassu oil and Palm Kernel oil are good substitutes, although when using PKO I like to mix it w/CO at about 10% each.
Castor does not make lather by itself, really, it just maximizes the effect of the oils that are in your recipe. So for me, it is one of the things that always go into the batch.
If you've ben using SoapCalc, then you've actually been super-fatting all along, but you didn't know it.
. Unless you physically type a certain numerical % into SoapCalc's super-fat box, it automatically sets the super-fat to a default 5%- for safety-sake so you don't end up with a lye-heavy batch.IrishLass
That would be kind of awesome, if you'd actually been SF'ing all along without realising it! It did seem strange that your soaps would feel OK w/a 0% superfat. Yeah for soapcalc, this time
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