Still Having Problem

[BeingBumble]

Hi Everyone, Im still having a problem with my soap batch getting very hard and crumbly on the bottom and ends (5LB rectangular mold with wood frame). I thought the problem may be it wasnt getting warm enough since I could tell it wasnt gelling completely but bought a heating pad, which I put underneath frame, and it still got hard and crumbly- I turned heat off after about an hour. I just cant figure out what is wrong and Im loosing tons of $ by trimming so much. I thought maybe I was leaving it wrapped too long (almost 24 hrs) so I unwrapped after about 7 hours and it was already hard. Could it be my recipe? I dont use palm. Although I have had success in the past.
And I use 40% lye concentration.
Im at a loss...

Thanks for any insight.

 

[seven]

i use a lot of palm and i never had crumbliness. would you mind posting your recipe and telling us more about what you did to make the soap?

 

[BeingBumble]

28% OO, 30% both CO & Mango & 2% Cocoa. I melt hard oils then add OO. Then I prepare my lye solution which I immediately pour into my oils. Stir till trace then pour. Wrap with lots of blankets and recently a heat pad underneath - turned off later. Voila. I dont use palm because of how the land is prepared (clear-cutting) before planting, etc.
I guess Im wondering if my recipe contains too many unsaponifiables...

 

[pamielynn]

Something's missing in your recipe - it only comes up to 90% oils.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

what temp are you soaping at? what do you mean by 40% lye concentration ? you increased it from the 38% set by soapcalc ? it is strange that the gel would stop like that , how long do you leave the heating pad on for ? is it a recipe you made before in a smaller mold ? did you do a zap test ?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Have you tried it in a totally different mould at all?

 

[seven]

40% lye concentration, if i understand correctly, is lye x 1.5 = the amount of water (1.5:1). pretty steep discount.

the rest of your oils were (the remaining 10%)?

basically, your recipe is already a hard one. i have never soaped with that much mango butter before, so i'm limited to what i can say about this. if i were you, i will try making a smaller batch and do it with more water this time (33% lye concentration = 2:1). i'm rather shooting in the dark here, but just maybe, with that high amount of mango butter and a steep water discount = crumbliness? someone please cmiiw.

 

[BeingBumble]

30% CO and 30% mango

 

[BeingBumble]

40% lye concentration, if i understand correctly, is lye x 1.5 = the amount of water (1.5:1). pretty steep discount.

the rest of your oils were (the remaining 10%)?

basically, your recipe is already a hard one. i have never soaped with that much mango butter before, so i'm limited to what i can say about this. if i were you, i will try making a smaller batch and do it with more water this time (33% lye concentration = 2:1). i'm rather shooting in the dark here, but just maybe, with that high amount of mango butter and a steep water discount = crumbliness? someone please cmiiw.

Good Idea, I was just getting ready to try a batch using a different mold. Ill try using 33% lye - though it has worked with 1.5:1.
thank you

 

[BeingBumble]

Have you tried it in a totally different mould at all?

yes, ive used smaller molds in the past but am now, after many test batches, getting ready to step up production. ive tested this batch (variations of) for about 8 months and finally settled on this but now that im using the 5 lb mold its crumbly on the ends and bottom. so i guess its the mold. ill make a smaller batch this weekend and see what happens. thank you!

 

[BeingBumble]

Something's missing in your recipe - it only comes up to 90% oils.

i should have written it out. 30% C0 and 30% mango

thank you

 

[eucalypta]

28% OO,
30% CO
30% Mango 2
2 % Cocoa
----------
90% Total - sorry ! Still missing 10% oils

Could it be that your Cocoa butter is off?
I once received a foul batch of Cocoa butter - it did the same thing: crubling.

I don't think that the large amount of hard oils is of any influence.
A salt bar usually contains 90-100% Coconut oil.

I put some question marks to the soaping mehtod though:

I melt hard oils then add OO. Then I prepare my lye solution which I immediately pour into my oils. Stir till trace then pour.

This implicates that the temperature of your lye solution is > 80°C and the temp of your oils ca. 50°C.
That is a huge difference in temperature!
We usually work with them at - more or less - the same temp.

Regarding all of the above, anything could happen....

 

[newbie]

Are you hand stirring? DId you zap test the crumbles? It looks like a settling pattern, like lye heavy oils are settling at the bottom. Are you absolutely certain that all your lye is dissolving- when you say you make your solution and immediately pour, what do you mean?

 

[BeingBumble]

Are you hand stirring? DId you zap test the crumbles? It looks like a settling pattern, like lye heavy oils are settling at the bottom. Are you absolutely certain that all your lye is dissolving- when you say you make your solution and immediately pour, what do you mean?

Yes, I hand stir and this morning I put a drop of phenolphthalein on the hard crumbly part and it turned bright pink. I also put a drop on the not crumbly part and there was no color.

I stir my lye water until it is clear.

I dont wait for my oils and lye solution to reach the same temp before I blend them. Could that be the problem? I learned this from this forum, I believe its called "thermal transfer method."
Could this be causing what you called "the setting pattern"?

 

[BeingBumble]

28% OO,
30% CO
30% Mango 2
2 % Cocoa
----------
90% Total - sorry ! Still missing 10% oils

Could it be that your Cocoa butter is off?
I once received a foul batch of Cocoa butter - it did the same thing: crubling.

I don't think that the large amount of hard oils is of any influence.
A salt bar usually contains 90-100% Coconut oil.

I put some question marks to the soaping mehtod though:



This implicates that the temperature of your lye solution is > 80°C and the temp of your oils ca. 50°C.
That is a huge difference in temperature!
We usually work with them at - more or less - the same temp.

Regarding all of the above, anything could happen....

Sorry, 38% OO

 

[seven]

i usually waited until my lye mixture cool down, because i soap room temp. i don't have to heat my oils since i live in the tropics, and i rarely use butters.

that said, i've done hot lye to room temp oils a few times. usually when i'm in a hurry, or only doing basic 1 color soaps. they came out alright.

 

[Bex1982]

Are you hand stirring? DId you zap test the crumbles? It looks like a settling pattern, like lye heavy oils are settling at the bottom. Are you absolutely certain that all your lye is dissolving- when you say you make your solution and immediately pour, what do you mean?

That happened to me, the whole bottom was really hard and crumbled whni cut into it.
I didn’t mix it well enough.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I take it that this is not a recipe that you are selling yet, until you get this sorted out and then see how the soaps are after a while in storage?

Even if you follow the same soaping procedure with other recipes, it doesn't mean that it will automatically work with a different one - have you tried a more conventional method (room temp lye and oils, or at least within 5 degrees c of each other) to see if that helps at all?

 

[cmzaha]

Good Idea, I was just getting ready to try a batch using a different mold. Ill try using 33% lye - though it has worked with 1.5:1.
thank you

A 40% lye solution with so much butter will go off extremely quick without letting you thorougly mix in your lye and additives. I have a feeling it is not mixed well enough

 

[BeingBumble]

I take it that this is not a recipe that you are selling yet, until you get this sorted out and then see how the soaps are after a while in storage?

Even if you follow the same soaping procedure with other recipes, it doesn't mean that it will automatically work with a different one - have you tried a more conventional method (room temp lye and oils, or at least within 5 degrees c of each other) to see if that helps at all?

I havent; Ill try that today. thank you