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Soft Shave Soap_Preserve?

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cmzaha

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Since my shave soap is a croap type soap what is the opinion on preserving it? I have been looking up this type of shave soap and notice no preservative is used. I preserve all my actual cream soap and just wondered about this type of shave soap.
 

boyago

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You've got allot more soaping under your belt than me but I think the only reason you preserve cream soaps is because of all the extra water and unsapped stearic hanging out in the soap. Since the shave soaps have around the same amount of water as bar soaps I think the high ph is enough to keep them from rotting.
 

DeeAnna

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Boyago -- But Carolyn is talking about a shave soap made with a cream soap method. It has more water than the typical kind of shave soap that most people make, which is the reason why she's asking.

Carolyn -- There's a lot of controversy about preservative in cream soaps and I'd say that extends to croaps as well. I'm pretty sure Lindy doesn't use any in her cream soaps, but others do. If the soap has anything more than water, lye, EO/FO, fats, and fatty acids, I personally think it's a good idea. If you normally add preservative to your "normal" cream soaps, it makes sense for you to do likewise to your shaving croap. They are really not all that much different. I made a cream-soap style shaving soap earlier this year. Because it doesn't have any unusual additives, I haven't put a preservative in it, but if I were to do so, I'd use liquid germall plus at 0.5% of the total weight.
 

boyago

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ah, thanks my, semantics were off. I thought croaps were just the softer soaps we get with all KOH and the creamed soaps were just called creams.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I too, was under the impression it was a typical KOH shave croap (like in the Songwind thread), rather than a cream. If the former, no need to preserve. If the latter, I am totally unsure!
 

DeeAnna

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Well, okay, maybe MY semantics are off! Here's my thinking on the matter. Would you gentlemen kindly tell me if I'm off base?

There are hard pucks made with mostly or all NaOH. Typical lye concentration anywhere from about 28% to 40% if CP'ed.

There are softer pucks made with medium amounts of KOH and NaOH. Typical lye concentration of about 25% if HP'ed.

And then there's the really soft soap (croap?) that is likely to be made with high KOH, low NaOH and varying amounts of water. If the lye solution concentration to make this soft soap is about 25%, then the soap is going to have a moldable clay-like texture.

If the lye solution concentration for this really soft soap is further reduced to about 15%, then the result is a "cream soap". This is what I believe Carolyn has made, if I recall her other post correctly.

The thinking about cream soap is that the higher water content may make the soap more likely to support microbial growth, especially if there are other ingredients besides the basic water, lye, fat, glycerin, and fragrance. There's a fair amount of controversy on this point, however.

And so, gentlemen, what are your reactions???
 

cmzaha

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I too, was under the impression it was a typical KOH shave croap (like in the Songwind thread), rather than a cream. If the former, no need to preserve. If the latter, I am totally unsure!
This particular one is 80% KOH, 20% NaOH with 50% stearic acid and is quite soft after 3 months. Would put it to the consistency of a still jello even with the addition of 1.5% Sodium Lactate. Brings about another thought, could the percentage of Sodium Lactate kept this softer? I do not use SL often. Not much by way of additives other than 13% glycern and aloe juice (not fresh aloe) for mixing the lye. Thinking I am going the Germall Plus route with the next batch and keep this one around to test with a shaving brush for 6 months or so to see what happens. :-D

DeeAnna that is exactly what I use for preserving my cream soap. I have had cream soap get a layer of mold during rotting time, in a sterilized container that was not opened until it was done rotting for 3 months. So I now preserve and have not had a problem since. :thumbup:
 

DeeAnna

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Carolyn, I'd say the softness of your shave soap is more from the overall liquid (aloe, glycerin) content as well as the 80:20 KOH:NaOH ratio. The sodium lactate might have something to do with it, too, but I honestly doubt it's the main reason for the softness.

If you want to experiment, leave a sample out to dry in the open for a few weeks and see if the moisture loss changes the overall softness. I doubt it will ever get hard like bar soap, but it may firm up quite a bit and become more like artist's clay or Play-Do.
 

Obsidian

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I use all KOH in my shave soap. If I'm careful, I can cut it into pucks after freezing it but most of the time, I just pour it into bowls. If I seal the bowls the soap will stay soft, like sticky butter but if I let it dry, it gets firm like play doh.
While I've not had it tested, there has been no visible mold growing in any of the containers or on the pucks.
 

shunt2011

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I too use all KOH and am able to cut in my cutter with no trouble as long as I let it sit exposed after unfolding for about 8 hours. I sell it in shallow jars and sell pucks as refills.
 

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Carolyn - I've only made one batch of shaving croap but the recipe I came up with sounds a lot like yours minus the SL. It was also 80% KOH/20% NaOH and about half stearic acid. I made it almost 6 months ago and did not use any preservative. Was able to roll it into a log then slice into pucks like shunt described but never put any of them in a container. I just didn't have anything appropriate at the time but if I did I might worry more about moisture being trapped in the container that 'could possibly' grow ickies.
 

cmzaha

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Carolyn, I'd say the softness of your shave soap is more from the overall liquid (aloe, glycerin) content as well as the 80:20 KOH:NaOH ratio. The sodium lactate might have something to do with it, too, but I honestly doubt it's the main reason for the softness.

If you want to experiment, leave a sample out to dry in the open for a few weeks and see if the moisture loss changes the overall softness. I doubt it will ever get hard like bar soap, but it may firm up quite a bit and become more like artist's clay or Play-Do.
This has been drying out for 3 months. While some have been poured in a jar which is open but lightly covered with sandwich paper to keep clean there are also some small squares that were poured in a brownie bite mold. The brownie bite sizes are just as soft as the soap in the jar. Certainly softer than play dough. These were made with a 33.4% lye concentration so I wonder if the glycerin is the culprit to this softness. No way could it be rolled and cut.

Carolyn - I've only made one batch of shaving croap but the recipe I came up with sounds a lot like yours minus the SL. It was also 80% KOH/20% NaOH and about half stearic acid. I made it almost 6 months ago and did not use any preservative. Was able to roll it into a log then slice into pucks like shunt described but never put any of them in a container. I just didn't have anything appropriate at the time but if I did I might worry more about moisture being trapped in the container that 'could possibly' grow ickies.
It is the fact they are in the container and will not be able to dry out like a regular puck that worries me. I am going to make another batch and preserve it. Then I will wait it out for 6 months or so to see what happens. Will leave some dry and some damp
 

boyago

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And so, gentlemen, what are your reactions???
You mean like what would I call each of those? I'd call it what ever it says on the package, but when thinking to myself and want to hang labels on things I think that any shave-bar soap is just shave soap, anything "rotted" with a ton of water would be a shave-cream and anything in between would be a croap. But that's just hoe I roll.
 

cmzaha

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I too, was under the impression it was a typical KOH shave croap (like in the Songwind thread), rather than a cream. If the former, no need to preserve. If the latter, I am totally unsure!
I was just reading back through this thread Craig. I made this with the intention of it being a croap but it came out quite soft. (almost a cream cheese consistency) My concern is water will actually be stiing in the jar so it really worries me with this or any croap shave soap. I think a harder puck would dry out like any soap but not sure this will. To be on the safe side I rebatched it and added in preservative. Took a lot of mixing after it cooled enough for the Germall Plus.
 
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