Soaping 101 liquid soapmaking video?

[DeeAnna]

Huh? Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.

Here's the point I think Faith is commenting on: Cookbookchef said this:
"...I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label...."

The number on the castor oil label would be ounces by volume. Faith is right that the weight in ounces will be different than the volume in ounces.

Only water has the same weight and volume in ounces. For example, 8 ounces volume = 8 ounces weight ... but only for water.

The weight for the castor should actually be a smaller number than the volume, not a larger number, since castor is less dense than water.

Did you tare the scale before weighing the castor? The extra weight might be the added container weight, if you didn't tare out the container.

And, yes, scales can do odd things when the batteries are low.

 

[CookbookChef]

Huh? Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.

Ya Susie, on my bottle of Glycerin from Walmart, it states WEIGHT AMOUNT 6 OUNCES...but when I weigh it out by pouring it out, it was 7.50 ounces....saying that, MOST of the time I pour it out and weigh it, and its dead on...6 Ounces...I THINK if something is in a container and says 6 ounces it needs to say 6 ounces by Volume, not by weight. Cause if it says 6 Ounces by WEIGHT, then a person believes that is what it is....hmmm, I kind a think that is right. I kinda think that the company is not stupid, and they put that it is a WEIGHT amount on the Glycerin, I think if they MENT it was 6 ounces by volume, that they would of stated that on the label....just saying. In other words, I tend to believe my scale is off, more than the bottle that stated to have 6 ounces in WEIGHT was really labled wrong, and has 7.50 ounces in a bottle labeled for 6 ounces. I do think my scale is off. Just to be sure...I will place NEW batteries into my scale and first weigh out a bottle of Glycerin stating to have 6 Ounces on it...then, I will change the batteries, and RE WEIGH it...and see if it is any different. Ya, right now it states 7.50 ounces for a bottle of 6 Ounces of Glycerin. I will get batteries in the next few days.

 

[CookbookChef]

Here's the point I think Faith is commenting on: Cookbookchef said this:
"...I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label...."

The number on the castor oil label would be ounces by volume. Faith is right that the weight in ounces will be different than the volume in ounces.

Only water has the same weight and volume in ounces. For example, 8 ounces volume = 8 ounces weight ... but only for water.

The weight for the castor should actually be a smaller number than the volume, not a larger number, since castor is less dense than water.

Did you tare the scale before weighing the castor? The extra weight might be the added container weight, if you didn't tare out the container.

And, yes, scales can do odd things when the batteries are low.

it was Glycerin, and yes I use the scale right. so, it must be the batteries...I will do testing and let you know what I find out AFTER I get new batteries

 

[CookbookChef]

Yes i have used rice bran oil at 10% with sunflower oil,canol oil,castor,olive and coconut oil.. yes,lots of oil..just to save on other oils .. it turned out very nice and clear till i added essential oils

yes, essential oils can always change things, OR NOT...so, its best to take out a portion of the soap, and do a test with the essential oil that you want to use, or fragrance oil, and test it into the soap. Better to ruin a small amount, then to add it to a whole batch and have it go weird. If you cant use that soap after it got changed by the EO, then you can use it for personal hand washing, or body wash...or add it into a batch of homemade laundry soap. either way, the RECKED soap, can still be used, somehow

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree about the small lye excess for SBM even though you choose zero superfat. I have never been quite comfortable with the reasons why they do that, but hey whatever.

That still doesn't answer the question about why SoapCalc is giving higher KOH numbers yet. I haven't dug into the math too far, but I suspect it's that darn 90% KOH purity check box. You can either get the KOH amount based on 100% or on 90%, but to be honest, I think the KOH purity from various suppliers varies a lot more than NaOH purity.

I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH.

What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?

 

[CookbookChef]

When we measure ingredients to use for soap making we weigh them. Liquids packaged for purchase are packaged via volume not weight. So my point is if you purchase a container of glycerin that's states 8 fluid ounces it does not mean it weighs 8 ounces but has a volume of 8 ounces.

I dont know FGOriold, I might need to humbly disagree with you. I have seen OFTEN where when it is a bottle that is an amount that is VOLUME, it will state on the label : 6 Ounces by Volume
Where if it is by Weight, it will state by Weight. Just saying, this has been my take on it. Even myself, when I send a 12 Ounce container of sugar scrub, I will CHOOSE one or the other. If I choose to WEIGH my product out, and give it as a give of 12 Ounces, I will state on the container: 12 Ounces
If I give it by Volume, I will state on my container: 12 Ounces by Volume, Not by Weight. I do this so that its CLEAR to my friend what they are getting, or if I sell it, I for sure do that. Some ppl will look at a half empty container and get mad, but if you tell them it was by WEIGHT, they understand. But if my Product is super light, 12 Ounces may take 2 Containers to use up compared to the one container of something heavy. I had a customer that wanted 12 ounces by weight of a fluffy cream I made, well it took 2...12 Ounce containers to give her the 12 ounces that she wanted, cause their was so much air in it. I ended up using ONE 24 Ounce Container, and wrote on the container, 12 Ounces by Volume, not by Weight!!
So, for Liquid, you are saying that it is a given, that it is done by VOLUME, That has not been my experience with liquids. So, when the Glycerin states 6 Ounces on the Bottle, UNLESS they state it was filled by Volume, I would assume it is by weight, cause for one thing, it says WEIGHT right on the bottle. Alot of my recipes need 6 ounces of Glycerin exactly. In the past, it has NEVER been an issue to use a bottle of the Glycerin I buy from Walmart, cause 6 Ounces weighs out at 6 Ounces on my scale. It just started weighing it at 7.50 Ounces....I do think it is my Scale that is wrong, and not the labeling. I respectfully disagree with you, Humbly and peaceably.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

Thanks all for the input. It kind of make sense to me now.
My worry is that I will end up with a high % SF soap which will split and be cloudy, etc., or to end up with soap that's too caustic.
But I guess, it's just trial and error, I will try and make few smaller batches and go from there.
I was ordering my KOH today and realised my supplier actually states it's "> 90% pure". But I will email them just to make sure, I hope they have idea how much % exactly.

 

[Susie]

Yes, it is calibrated for a small lye excess - I will see if I can find the post on their website where the owner spells it out.

Here you go:
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/sbm-liquid-soap-calculator-neutralization-needed

I am going to quote the exact sentence they used so folks understand exactly what they said.

"This was done by taking into account the water content that is always
present in KOH flakes and by verifying the sap values of our oils by
making single-oil liq. soap batches with each of our oils."

This is why we don't have to click a 90% purity box on that site like you do on Soapcalc. I still get consistently smaller amounts of KOH on SBM than SoapCalc with the 90% purity box checked.

 

[Susie]

Thanks all for the input. It kind of make sense to me now.
My worry is that I will end up with a high % SF soap which will split and be cloudy, etc., or to end up with soap that's too caustic.
But I guess, it's just trial and error, I will try and make few smaller batches and go from there.
I was ordering my KOH today and realised my supplier actually states it's "> 90% pure". But I will email them just to make sure, I hope they have idea how much % exactly.

Just go with it being 90% pure. By the time you open it and it sucks up some moisture from the air, it is going to be 90% or less. If you live in a humid area, and don't make soap all that often, you may need to weigh the container after every batch and before the next batch to start figuring out if it continues to absorb moisture(that is what I have to do.)

Just keep that SF at 3% or less, and you should be fine. Some FOs and EOs will cause some separation, so you may need to add some PS80 to those, but that part is trial and error. Also, some oils cause cloudiness, lard, tallow, jojoba, probably some butters. Write lots of notes so you know what FOs and EOs cause this.

 

[Susie]

it was Glycerin, and yes I use the scale right. so, it must be the batteries...I will do testing and let you know what I find out AFTER I get new batteries

I happened to have some Glycerin from Walmart that is unopened. It is an 6 FL oz bottle. I poured it out into a cup on the tared scale. The contents weighed 6 oz. You do need new batteries.

 

[shaan]

I

I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH.

What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?

Yes, i am the one using 85% pure KOH. And I think i am the only one here,using it.. but i calculated 0% superfat in soapcalc with only KOH(not selecting 90%) which gave exact amount that was needed for 85% pure KOH, at 3% superfat.

 

[FGOriold]

I dont know FGOriold, I might need to humbly disagree with you. I have seen OFTEN where when it is a bottle that is an amount that is VOLUME, it will state on the label : 6 Ounces by Volume
Where if it is by Weight, it will state by Weight. Just saying, this has been my take on it. Even myself, when I send a 12 Ounce container of sugar scrub, I will CHOOSE one or the other. If I choose to WEIGH my product out, and give it as a give of 12 Ounces, I will state on the container: 12 Ounces
If I give it by Volume, I will state on my container: 12 Ounces by Volume, Not by Weight. I do this so that its CLEAR to my friend what they are getting, or if I sell it, I for sure do that. Some ppl will look at a half empty container and get mad, but if you tell them it was by WEIGHT, they understand. But if my Product is super light, 12 Ounces may take 2 Containers to use up compared to the one container of something heavy. I had a customer that wanted 12 ounces by weight of a fluffy cream I made, well it took 2...12 Ounce containers to give her the 12 ounces that she wanted, cause their was so much air in it. I ended up using ONE 24 Ounce Container, and wrote on the container, 12 Ounces by Volume, not by Weight!!
So, for Liquid, you are saying that it is a given, that it is done by VOLUME, That has not been my experience with liquids. So, when the Glycerin states 6 Ounces on the Bottle, UNLESS they state it was filled by Volume, I would assume it is by weight, cause for one thing, it says WEIGHT right on the bottle. Alot of my recipes need 6 ounces of Glycerin exactly. In the past, it has NEVER been an issue to use a bottle of the Glycerin I buy from Walmart, cause 6 Ounces weighs out at 6 Ounces on my scale. It just started weighing it at 7.50 Ounces....I do think it is my Scale that is wrong, and not the labeling. I respectfully disagree with you, Humbly and peaceably.

Well you can disagree with me all you want you can indicate how you would like manufacturers to fill and label their products, but it is the labeling laws that matter and that you need to understand. Liquids are sold by volume, solids are sold by weight - when it comes to bath and body products, that is part of the labeling laws so I assume it is the law for other products as well. And if you are in the US, you do not get to choose how you want to label the contents of your products, you must follow the labeling laws. Solids are net weight, liquids are fluid weight (volume). I suggest reading up on it a bit more before continuing to label your products. Here is a good place to start. www.mariegale.com. If you are not in the US, I cannot comment on your countries laws.

While it may not make sense or seem possible that liquid volume would not be the same as liquid weight, as DeeAnna explained outside of water, it does. It may only be slight but liquids like solids have different densities making the amount of space they take up based on physical weight vary amongst the different liquids. So when you see a bottle of liquid, you will see the measurement as fluid ounces or ml (or as you said "by volume"). When you see a solid product, it will be just be the net weight as the physical weight of the item.

Why fluids are required to be labeled as volume over physical weight is not something I can answer, but it is part of labeling laws and for the most part, the two should not bee too far off from each other which cannot be said for solids or semi-solids. Think about an ounce of feathers vs. an ounce of rocks. They obviously physically weigh the same (1 ounce), but have a different volume in the amount of space needed for each physical ounce. Like I said, liquids won't have as wide a variation in volume vs. weight as solids can.

So, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to explain why when you weight out the liquid, it may vary from what the label says the contents are as you are using two different ways to measure the contents.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

Thank you Susie! I appreciate all the advice.
I've put in order today and will hopefully have everything by next weekend.
I also purchased emulsifier, it's PS85 though but apparently does the same as PS80.
I will start with basic recipe posted here, with maybe a bit of NG and BB FOs and see how I go. I might post a picture if it's not complete failure.

 

[FGOriold]

I agree about the small lye excess for SBM even though you choose zero superfat. I have never been quite comfortable with the reasons why they do that, but hey whatever.

That still doesn't answer the question about why SoapCalc is giving higher KOH numbers yet. I haven't dug into the math too far, but I suspect it's that darn 90% KOH purity check box. You can either get the KOH amount based on 100% or on 90%, but to be honest, I think the KOH purity from various suppliers varies a lot more than NaOH purity.

I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH.

What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?

This is an excellent point regarding the lye purity and how that can greatly vary between suppliers and cause problems with our soaps. It can even change if your lye is stored in such a way that it absorbs water from the air making it even less pure.

I use lye from The Lye Guy and stick with summerbeemeadow calc using a 1 - 3% superfat and get consistent results in my soap not being lye heavy and not needing to neutralize. However, if I ever make a mistake or am off for some reason, if my soap ends up lye heavy, I do have additives on hand to deal with it instead of waste the whole batch. Things happen no matter how careful we are in choosing and weighing our raw materials and it is really important to know how do deal with and fix a lye heavy soap.

I always recommend people find a calculator that works for them consistently based on their raw ingredients and stick with it because you will get those lye calculation variations with each one and it will drive you crazy going back and forth.

When it comes to liquid amounts - Soapcalc will default to about 2x your KOH, Summerbee will default to 3 X your KOH. Both will work but will make the creation of your paste "different". Less water = faster trace but stiffer paste. More water = slower trace but more fluid paste (until evaporation removes the extra water) - but as many people know, each formulation is different and your paste will vary greatly for a variety of reasons, not just water amount used. One of the reasons why the glycerin method paste is usually very fluid, is that the glycerin will not evaporate out of your paste like water will.

 

[FGOriold]

..... and one more thing regarding the lye calculations.
The higher the purity of KOH used, the less KOH required, the lower the purity, the more KOH require to saponify the same amount of oils.

100% purity - lower lye amounts needed as it is assumed there is no inactive ingredients present in the KOH
97% purity - more lye needed than 100% purity
90% purity - even more lye needed than 97% or 100% purity

So depending on what purity is being assumed in the calculator, the amount of needed lye returned will be different. That is why you can enter the exact same oils in Summerbee, Soapcalc 100% and Soapcalc 90% and you will get a different amount of lye needed.

 

[IrishLass]

Solids are net weight, liquids are fluid weight (volume). .

From what I understand, that might or might not actually be the case. I haven't read what Marie Gale's take on this is, but I was just reading the fine print of the actual FDA regs on the FDA.Gov site and there seems to be a little bit of wiggle room on this, for they have a whole section of the regs where they state exemptions to the rule:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.105

One of those exemptions relates to substances that are viscous in nature, which would explain why my liquid, pourable honey and agave nectar are labeled specifically by weight as opposed to fl. ounces, even though they are in an obvious fluid state (albeit thick/viscous).

Although the above relates to US food packaging laws, it seems to also be the same for cosmetic labeling (this is also taken from the FDA site in regards to cosmetic products):

Product Consistency: Unless there is a firmly established, general consumer usage or trade custom to the contrary, the statement must be in terms of fluid measure if the cosmetic is liquid and in terms of weight if the cosmetic is solid, semi-solid, viscous, or a mixture of solid and liquid. Fluid measures must express the volume at 68°F (20°C). The customary net contents declaration for aerosol products is in terms of weight.

Systems: Weight is expressed in terms of avoirdupois pound and ounce. Fluid measures are expressed in terms of the U.S. gallon, quart, pint and fluid ounce. Net contents may additionally be stated also in the metric system.

Unit Terms: The term "net weight" or "net wt." must be used in conjunction with a weight statement, and the term "net contents," "net" or nothing must be used in connection with a liquid statement.

Additional abbreviations are for: weight - wt., fluid - fl., gallon - gal., quart - qt., pint - pt., ounce - oz., pound - lb.

In case of a weight ounce statement, the term "oz." is sufficient. A fluid ounce is expressed as "fl. oz."

Don't know if that helps at all or not, but I just thought I'd post what I found.

IrishLass

 

[lpstephy85]

I am at work right now, but this morning before I left I zap tested my LS paste and I didn't feel an instant zap but it had a sweet taste and then a couple of seconds later my tongue started to burn a little and feel irritated until I rinsed my mouth out with cold water. I will test it again when I get home when I have more time to play with it. I really hope just adding more oil a little at a time works. I think I will try another batch this weekend using SBM advanced calc and see if I have the same issue.

 

[Susie]

I am at work right now, but this morning before I left I zap tested my LS paste and I didn't feel an instant zap but it had a sweet taste and then a couple of seconds later my tongue started to burn a little and feel irritated until I rinsed my mouth out with cold water. I will test it again when I get home when I have more time to play with it. I really hope just adding more oil a little at a time works. I think I will try another batch this weekend using SBM advanced calc and see if I have the same issue.

If you did not get an immediate zap, you are golden! Soap does not taste great, but it does the job. And the irritation is OK. That immediate zap is unmistakable.

 

[lpstephy85]

If you did not get an immediate zap, you are golden! Soap does not taste great, but it does the job. And the irritation is OK. That immediate zap is unmistakable.

I lied, still a slight zap. More OO added

 

[fuzz-juzz]

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