Salt, Sugar, Stearic Acid and ACV

[Kcryss]

My max castor oil usage is 7%. Most of us use 5%. Sometimes I don't even use it lol

Some have reported softer and/or stickier soap when they used a lot of castor - like more than 10%. Some, not all..

Speaking of 10% many have said that any oil/butter less than that isn't noticeable. For sure, a 2% increase of your cocoa butter from 8 to 10 will make a difference in longevity. I for one don't particularly like olive oil, and I like the lather of canola so if it was me I'd split the amount of olive+canola.

I should also mention that when I use coconut as little as yours, which is almost all the time, I also lower my superfat. My personal rule is, the lower the cleansing, the lower the superfat. If my cleansing was around 10-12 I'd only superfat maybe 2-3.

Or... Don't listen to me and make that soap lol. Make a smaller batch. See how you like it then tweak it if you think it needs improvement.

lol, love your last line. Too funny!

I've never used castor that high before. To be honest, not sure why I did it this time. But if anything over 10% causes a sticky bar, I may well reduce that amount.

I've been afraid to go too high with the Canola oil because of the fatty acid profile. I'll play around with my formula and see what I can do with it.

With regard to the sf, I live in a pretty dry climate and have very dry skin. So I try to keep cleansing down. That being said, if I reduce sf, will that make the bar more drying? That was my assumption, but I could be way off base. I've only been doing this for a little over a month, so I'm still on the up-side of the learning curve.

 

[AliOop]

What a fantastic discussion! Thank you @DeeAnna for the additional info about acetate acting as a (non-soap) chelator. I bet that's where the rumor started... someone said/read that it is a chelator in such-and-such a formula. Then someone else extrapolated that to soap without any scientific evidence to support that assumption. Telephone game, anyone?

@Kcryss , I like @Dawni 's advice to you: make that soap! Research is great, but at some point, there has to be real-world experience to test what holds true in your soaping life. Some principles are pretty general, whereas others can be pretty specific to certain situations and geographic areas. But you just won't know till you MAKE THAT SOAP.

 

[Kcryss]

What a fantastic discussion! Thank you @DeeAnna for the additional info about acetate acting as a (non-soap) chelator. I bet that's where the rumor started... someone said/read that it is a chelator in such-and-such a formula. Then someone else extrapolated that to soap without any scientific evidence to support that assumption. Telephone game, anyone?

Exactly! There is sooo much bad info out there that I try the best I can to get what I'm hearing/seeing straightened out with all of you before trying it out!

@Kcryss , I like @Dawni 's advice to you: make that soap! Research is great, but at some point, there has to be real-world experience to test what holds true in your soaping life. Some principles are pretty general, whereas others can be pretty specific to certain situations and geographic areas. But you just won't know till you MAKE THAT SOAP.

lol, very true! I will be making it tomorrow!

 

[Kcryss]

My max castor oil usage is 7%. Most of us use 5%. Sometimes I don't even use it lol

Some have reported softer and/or stickier soap when they used a lot of castor - like more than 10%. Some, not all..

Speaking of 10% many have said that any oil/butter less than that isn't noticeable. For sure, a 2% increase of your cocoa butter from 8 to 10 will make a difference in longevity. I for one don't particularly like olive oil, and I like the lather of canola so if it was me I'd split the amount of olive+canola.

I should also mention that when I use coconut as little as yours, which is almost all the time, I also lower my superfat. My personal rule is, the lower the cleansing, the lower the superfat. If my cleansing was around 10-12 I'd only superfat maybe 2-3.

Or... Don't listen to me and make that soap lol. Make a smaller batch. See how you like it then tweak it if you think it needs improvement.

Well, you have far more experience then I do, so tweaked the recipe I'll be using tomorrow based on your feedback. Thank you!

 

[Laíny Tenório]

Hi! I can't find sodium gluconate anywhere and today I was advised to use Dermofeel PA-3 to replace it. Has anyone used it? It suits? Would they indicate another natural chelator?

 

[linne1gi]

A lot of soapers believe vinegar lowers the pH of soap, but small amounts won't do much to the pH. If you add vinegar after the cook rather than upfront, the vinegar will increase the superfat by breaking some of the finished soap into fatty acids (FAs). Intentionally superfatting with FAs is a legitimate thing to do -- many commercial soaps are superfatted with added FAs.

I gather most small scale soapers aren't thinking of this, however, when they use vinegar. Instead they have pH lowering in mind when they add vinegar to soap. There's a recent thread here where someone recommended lowering the pH of soap to 7 or 8 by adding acid. I tried to explain the chemistry of why this causes more trouble than good, but I'm sure no matter what, this idea won't die any time soon just because I trot out some math and chemistry.

Hard to say what goals Valerie Mosher has in mind by adding vinegar. Could be wishful thinking or not -- you'd have to ask her.

***

I researched more about sodium acetate and sodium lactate recently and learned they are indeed mild chelators that are sometimes used for that purpose in foods and medical treatments.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended as chelators for use in protecting soap, lotions, and other B&B products, or for water treatment. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.

Hi DeeAnna, I follow Valerie Mosher pretty carefully and it is through her that I learned how to make HP soap more fluid. Yes she add vinegar post cook, but she adds it because she likes the skin feeling it gives her, not to lower the pH. She is aware that ACV cannot lower the pH.

 

[sarahd]

A lot of soapers believe vinegar lowers the pH of soap, but small amounts won't do much to the pH. If you add vinegar after the cook rather than upfront, the vinegar will increase the superfat by breaking some of the finished soap into fatty acids (FAs). Intentionally superfatting with FAs is a legitimate thing to do -- many commercial soaps are superfatted with added FAs.

I gather most small scale soapers aren't thinking of this, however, when they use vinegar. Instead they have pH lowering in mind when they add vinegar to soap. There's a recent thread here where someone recommended lowering the pH of soap to 7 or 8 by adding acid. I tried to explain the chemistry of why this causes more trouble than good, but I'm sure no matter what, this idea won't die any time soon just because I trot out some math and chemistry.

Hard to say what goals Valerie Mosher has in mind by adding vinegar. Could be wishful thinking or not -- you'd have to ask her.

***

I researched more about sodium acetate and sodium lactate recently and learned they are indeed mild chelators that are sometimes used for that purpose in foods and medical treatments.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended as chelators for use in protecting soap, lotions, and other B&B products, or for water treatment. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.

I'm new to the forum but have already learnt a great deal from reading these discussions, and I appreciate those people who are trying to nut out the chemistry of what is going on. Thank you.

Do you think its possible that, as Valerie finds, adding vinegar after the cook actually softens the soapy water a little by dissolving any soap scum molecules that form as the soap dissolves in the water (that may have calcium and magnesium in it)? Acids are often used to clean soap scum affected surfaces as they can dissolve the calcium and magnesium salts.

This might happen if the vinegar added after the cook is not strong enough to break the soap molecules, and therefore stays as acetic acid (and not sodium acetate).

 

[DeeAnna]

"...This might happen if the vinegar added after the cook is not strong enough to break the soap molecules, and therefore stays as acetic acid (and not sodium acetate). ..."

Problem with this line of thinking ... is this doesn't happen.