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spotts71

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was going to try my hand at HP on the stove and thought I read enough about it but..... I have a gas stove and don't think it gets low enough. I started to cook on low and within one min. it started to pop and splater and I got scared and yanked it off, remixed and just dumped in mold. It gelled in the mold and evreything turned out fine but I'd like to try my hjand at it anyway.

So do I stand there and keep stiring as soon as I put it on the heat? Will that keep it from spitting all over the place? Will it make the soap more of a creamer look or will it maintain a still gelled look?

please help
 
G

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You shouldn't be putting the pan with the soap directly over the flame. Instead you must isolate it, usually by water or steam. For example, use a double boiler. The lower pan has water in it. The stove heats the water and converts it to steam, the steam hits the upper pan. It can never rise above about 212 degrees because that's the heat of unpressurized steam. This also avoids hot spots.

Another method is called boil in bag. You shred your soap and put it in a 1 gallon freezer bag, squeeze out the air and seal it, then put that bag another bag doing the same. Split your mixture into multiple bags if necessary. Then simmer it in a large kettle.

A third way is to use a crock pot, my favorite method. I run my crock on low and that's sufficient to rebatch but not so much as to burn it.

Please note that my reply here is not a complete tutorial. I've just glossed the principles for you. Good luck!
 

spotts71

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thanks but I still think I need more info. If I'm melting oil in the pot, and the lye/liquid in another and add lye to oils and trace-- then do I add to crock pot? or melt oil in crock and add lye/liquid to crock and trace there?

Does the soap come out the same? Does it come out with the gelled look?

I'm trying to get away from that look. I'm trying to figure if HP will give me more of the creamy look (before colors) or if I can get this look with the CP and maybe add something and still take it to full gel.
 

beadella

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WILL SOMEBODY PAAAAAAALLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE TELL ME WHAT GEL IS??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :? :? :roll:
 

Soapmaker Man

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beadella said:
WILL SOMEBODY PAAAAAAALLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE TELL ME WHAT GEL IS??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :? :? :roll:
Sure. Gel is when the chemical reaction of the lye and the oils/fats are at their highest point. The mixture will appear kinda, transparent, jelly looking, wiggly. This is when maximum heat is generated because of saponification of the oils/fats. HP verses CP gel is a bit different, but similar in nature. HP is just forcing, or cooking the batter, forcing it through complete saponification faster. You can generally use a HP soap as soon as you remove it from the mold and cut the soap. :wink: HTH :)

Paul :wink:
 

spotts71

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I think i need it answered more in a less tech. term. about the texture of the finished soap after it gels--- how do I get it to not look like that?
 

anhoki

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K... you know what soap looks like once you have added the lye to it, right? It gets to a pudding consistency.... When it "gels" it goes through a phase where it looks like jello or vaseline. This is "cooking" the soap and making the lye and oils do its magic.

For what it's worth...I did my FIRST HP this afternoon. Here is what it looks like....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/anhoki/2634992332/
If you DON'T want the textured tops and you use a slab mold you would make the bars thicker from the start and then trim the tops.

How's that?
 

spotts71

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no --what I'm trying to do is get the pudding look back not the hard gel look.
i am doing CP and tracing it very thick.
 

anhoki

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If you want a pudding look with HP soaping it won't happen. Either do CP or CPOP where you put your oven safe mold in the oven.
 

spotts71

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I'm doing CP. Haven't done HP or crock yet. I have been wrapping in towels for 24 hrs. To get a pudding look do I NOT wrap it? I have noticed it will still gel in the center but not on the edges if the wraps are not warm enough-- So then I add more to them until it gels to the edge then I don't look again until it is cool the next day. But I'm trying to get away from the hard gel look and back to the pudding look--
 

mcleodnaturals

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spotts71 said:
thanks but I still think I need more info. If I'm melting oil in the pot, and the lye/liquid in another and add lye to oils and trace-- then do I add to crock pot? or melt oil in crock and add lye/liquid to crock and trace there?

Does the soap come out the same? Does it come out with the gelled look?

I'm trying to get away from that look. I'm trying to figure if HP will give me more of the creamy look (before colors) or if I can get this look with the CP and maybe add something and still take it to full gel.
I do my HP in a crockpot. I mix all my oils in the crockpot, put it on high (it only has two settings and I'm not a patient person! :wink: ) to melt them all together. I mix my lye and water in a :shock: pyrex :shock: measuring cup (I know that some don't like using them but I love mine) and when my oils are melted and the lye has cooled a bit (usually takes the same amount of time it seems if I do the lye as soon as I am done measuring the fats, although I don't use a thermometer) I simply turn off my crockpot (sometimes I take out the crock if it seems really warm) and then dump in my lye (carefully of course!) and stick blend it till it traces. THen I put the lid back on, turn it on (again I use high heat because of patience issues). It turns into a really thick custard/pudding texture that you can hardly stir and then it starts to slowly 'break down' into a vaseline type consistency. It's actually a really neat process to watch...this is the gel phase I think that CP goes through in the mold (although I've only seen it once in my CP soap...I always seem to forget to check on it)

I generally start stirring again when it is partially vaseline-y, otherwise it might just start to crawl out of the pot (ask me how I know! :shock: :? ) Then when it's not too 'wet' or shiny looking I turn off the heat, add my additives and plop it into my mold.

I love to HP my soaps...the process takes a bit longer than CP but the finished product is usable so much quicker that I think it's worth it...again patience issues!

Hope that helps!
 
G

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Just to comment on HP procedures, I see no need to let the lye mixture cool at all. When my solid oils are melted and the oils are at least 100 degrees I just add the lye mixture to the crock pot as soon as it's completely mixed and the cloudiness has gone away. The temperature of the ingredients in HP makes practically no difference as long as everything can get adequately mixed. The temperature it reaches afterwards of course matters, but you have that under your control by adjusting the heating controls.

BTW I start my CP out on high until the solid fats are melted, and then after I add the lye low is adequate. High would cause it to fizz and overflow. And you have to check your CP from time to time to make sure it isn't fizzing over. I stir my CPHP only about every 30-40 minutes, usually about 2 hours total processing time.

HP soap comes out duller looking than CP soap. I've even had colors look duller. The surface texture is different too, more rough than CP soap. I don't like the appearance but there's no way other than HP that allows you to control which superfats end up in your product. If I want 10 percent superfat and I want all my superfat to be shea butter, I make HP soap. My current thinking is that using small amounts of expensive fats for superfatting CP soap is one of those soaping myths, and you're just wasting your expensive fats doing that. However a bar that is mostly expensive fats is probably a different thing.

I might get to like the appearance of HP soap, or I might find ways to make HP soap more attractive. I've just started using HP recently. The crock pot works out great! Perfect!
 

spotts71

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anhoki said:
If you want a pudding look with HP soaping it won't happen. Either do CP or CPOP where you put your oven safe mold in the oven.
how is this in reference to wrapping to insulate to cause it to gel versus putting in oven?
 

Soapmaker Man

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Some put their mold on a heating pad to help gel. If you are using a slab mold, the soap is thinner verses a log mold, so not as much heat is produced in the soap during saponification. That is where a heating pad helps with gel.
 

beadella

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Lovehound said:
I don't like the appearance but there's no way other than HP that allows you to control which superfats end up in your product. If I want 10 percent superfat and I want all my superfat to be shea butter, I make HP soap. My current thinking is that using small amounts of expensive fats for superfatting CP soap is one of those soaping myths, and you're just wasting your expensive fats doing that. However a bar that is mostly expensive fats is probably a different thing.
I read in a book (please excuse the lack of real experience) that you could control the oils that come through in super fatting by just adding the oils that you want after you get trace. That way, they don't saponify like the main batch of oils that are mixed with the lye solution. Did the author tell a big porky???? :? :shock:
 

Lane

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wowee... I read this post twice and it STILL has me confused...haha...

spotts71- Have you ever done RTCP? A method of low temp. CP. No gelling. If you don't want that gelled look, after you pour your batch in the mold, DO NOT INSULATE IT. :D That will keep the smooth creamy look :wink: You could even put it in the fridge to keep it cool. But I'd give it an extra day to unmold, RTCP tends to be softer. Hope that helps some. ♥

beadella- I'm pretty sure your right about the superfatting thing. Once you've hit trace, your lye has "latched on" to your oils and any oils you add after that won't "latch on" because the lye is already doing it's business with the previous oils, hence trace! :) But I could be wrong...that does happen here and there :lol:
 

IrishLass

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beadella said:
[I read in a book (please excuse the lack of real experience) that you could control the oils that come through in super fatting by just adding the oils that you want after you get trace. That way, they don't saponify like the main batch of oils that are mixed with the lye solution. Did the author tell a big porky???? :? :shock:

Yep, that's a big porky alright. :) I've had a chemist on another forum explain to me that it's a waste of time (and money) to add your more expensive superfatting oils after trace in CP in the hopes that they'll be the ones that remain unsaponified. She was priveleged to have a lab at her disposal in which to do numerous tests on her handmade soaps, and her test results proved this out. She said that at thick trace, only a mere 5% to 10% of the oils are actually saponified at that time, and that saponification is still going on for almost after a week after you pour. The majority of the saponification takes place in the first 24 hours after pour, but it still goes on to a lesser degree for almost a week. That means that any oils/fats you add after trace are just as likely to get eaten up by your lye as the oils'fats you added before trace.

The best way to ensure that your superfatting oils/fats remain unsaponified is to do HP, and then add them after the cook. HTH! :)


IrishLass
 

Lucy

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IrishLass said:
beadella said:
[I read in a book (please excuse the lack of real experience) that you could control the oils that come through in super fatting by just adding the oils that you want after you get trace. That way, they don't saponify like the main batch of oils that are mixed with the lye solution. Did the author tell a big porky???? :? :shock:

Yep, that's a big porky alright. :) I've had a chemist on another forum explain to me that it's a waste of time (and money) to add your more expensive superfatting oils after trace in CP in the hopes that they'll be the ones that remain unsaponified. She was priveleged to have a lab at her disposal in which to do numerous tests on her handmade soaps, and her test results proved this out. She said that at thick trace, only a mere 5% to 10% of the oils are actually saponified at that time, and that saponification is still going on for almost after a week after you pour. The majority of the saponification takes place in the first 24 hours after pour, but it still goes on to a lesser degree for almost a week. That means that any oils/fats you add after trace are just as likely to get eaten up by your lye as the oils'fats you added before trace.

The best way to ensure that your superfatting oils/fats remain unsaponified is to do HP, and then add them after the cook. HTH! :)


IrishLass
I could not agree more I think everyone should read this carefully.
Can you tell me Irish where this person is I would like to read more of her information.
 

spotts71

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Lane said:
wowee... I read this post twice and it STILL has me confused...haha...

spotts71- Have you ever done RTCP? A method of low temp. CP. No gelling. If you don't want that gelled look, after you pour your batch in the mold, DO NOT INSULATE IT. :D That will keep the smooth creamy look :wink: You could even put it in the fridge to keep it cool. But I'd give it an extra day to unmold, RTCP tends to be softer. Hope that helps some. ♥

No have not done rtcp. not sure what that is. I really want to get that creamy look in my soap and am still confused how to do it.

I mix everything a a very low temp? friend suggested mixing lye and oils at 60-80 degs. that might help? yes no?

Does it take longer for the lye? when it gels I have no lye tingle?

Is there an additive I can use to get the creamy look if I still gel? (i do like to gel cuz I can actually use it as soon as I unmold it)

ok maybe I'm being a lug head and still not getting it? sometimes the child like mind is very apparent.....
 

spotts71

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clay will get the soap a silky feel --- will that affect the color creamy look?

I think it off the the library to check out books!!! maybe I'll get a better understanding and reasons why things work the way they do.

ya'll have been a big help but will still be glad for more advise--lol
 

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