My first shaving soap is a success!

[Mark the Box Guy]

Hold on a minute: you cut it into bars?? It's a very soft soap and will never harden up. Soft shave soaps are made with KOH and are supposed to be poured into a bowl and used with a brush. I have no idea how long it will last in a shower's wet environment, but I suspect that most of it will simply melt down the drain. My humble recommendation is to squash it into lidded tubs and to either use a brush (if that method works for you) or scoop it out with your fingers and rub it on the appropriate body part before resealing the tub.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey, Mark, hi! The soap as I've made it lasts pretty well in the shower, as long as I don't leave it sitting in a puddle of water after I'm done shaving. It is soft, no question, but the soap is not particularly soluble due to all that stearic so it handles the damp environment of the shower very well.

The soap is a bit soft to cut into bars, but I do mold it by hand into a little puck that holds its shape fairly well. The soap I made, even with 100% KOH, is a bit too firm to scoop out by hand. A soap that is more of a squeezable paste is where I'm going next -- I think 100% KOH and a bit more water is probably what will work. Will keep ya posted -- it might be a few weeks.

 

[alaskazimm]

I'm a guy and started wet shaving within the last year so it will be used with a brush. No worries about that part. I don't intend to use it in the shower and only have it in bars for curing and storage.
Yes, it is very soft but it firmed up enough to be cut into bars. I was going to put it into tubs, but I didn't have any on hand. I got the idea for bars from the thread over on Badger & Blade so went with that.

 

[Tizzy]

Maybe I missed it after searching this thread but what lye concentration would you use with songwind's recipe?

I tried the recipe with 30% lye concentration and the batch came out lye heavy.

 

[alaskazimm]

I used 30% with a 5% discount and it came out fine. If your batch was lye heavy then it means one of three things (that I can think of):
1 - you didn't get the batter mixed well enough and it has some areas where the lye accumulated
2- not enough oils/too much lye
3- you need to cook the mixture longer (or let it cure) for the saponification process to complete

First thing would be to make sure your scale is accurate and you measured correctly. 5 US quarters equal one ounce/grams.

Need to run but hopefully this gives you a good starting place.

 

[DeeAnna]

Lye concentration and total lye are completely two different things, and I suspect you might be confusing the two.

Lye concentration has nothing to do with a soap being lye heavy. It's the total amount of lye (by "lye" I mean KOH, NaOH, or both) in your soap batch that determines whether a soap is skin safe or lye heavy. With a properly calculated recipe and correctly measured total amount of lye, you should be able to use any reasonable lye concentration you prefer and end up with a safe soap.

If you need a total of 100 g of NaOH in a soap batch, you could dissolve that 100 grams in 200 g of water to make a 33% solution (1 part NaOH, 2 parts water) or you could dissolve that 100 grams of NaOH in 300 grams of water to make a 25% solution (1 part NaOH, 3 parts water) or whatever. You'd have a total of 100 grams of NaOH in the soap in either of these examples; the difference would be the amount of water you would use.

21 May 2014 edit: KOH is somewhat more soluble than NaOH in water, so you can basically use the same solution concentrations for KOH that you would use for NaOH. Many people use 3 parts water and 1 part KOH -- a 25% solution -- or sometimes even more water.

Songwind and I didn't specify the lye concentration for the soaps we describe in this thread. That is something most soapers would choose for themselves. To answer your question directly, I would use a 25% concentration of lye in water (1 part lye and 3 parts water) to make this recipe using all or mostly KOH and a hot process method.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tizzy]

I'm still learning soap making and your explanation DeeAnna makes so much sense. Thank you alaskazimm and DeeAnna for your help. I think my problem was I added too much lye. My scale (a postal scale) was acting up when I was trying that recipe. Gonna invest in a good scale.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, Tizzy, I bet your scale is not accurate enough. Good call!

I have two scales for my soap and lotion making. For oil, water, lye, and other larger weighing jobs, I use My Weigh KD7000: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-kd7000-black.html The KD 8000 is similar but can handle more weight and costs a bit more.

For measuring essential and fragrance oils and other small weighing jobs, I use My Weigh iBalance 300: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-ibalance-300.html

 

[alaskazimm]

Also recommend the KD7000. A solid inexpensive scale that comes with a splash shield for the display.

 

[Saswede]

Well, I finally got hold of some KOH yesterday, so made my first shaving soap this morning! I decided to add in a little shea butter and castor oil (5% of each) for moisturizing (after all, winter is around the corner), so I slightly reduced the proportion of stearic acid and CO - but made sure that the stearic acid content on SoapCalc stayed above 50%. Scented with bay laurel and sweet orange, with a hint of peppermint (all EOs), which I felt would give a subtle fresh fragrance that would suit the slightly greenish color from the bentonite clay. The whole house now smells fabulous!

It was really different than any HP or CP soap I've ever made, going from oil to "gloop" as soon as I added the lye. So definitely no need for the SB! Now I can't wait to try it out - and get DH to try it to give his opinion. He'll be the real test, because he's quite adamant that I won't be able to make anything as good as his Dr Harris shaving soap (which he buys online from Manufactum).


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[roguehippo]

Happy Halloween.... I'm bringing this thread back to life.

Okay, so I've read through this thread couple times. I want to try to make a new shaving soap. The one I make now is NaOH only and I'm curious about mixing NaOH and KOH. Sounds like a great science experiment. So here's my question. When you are entering it into soap calc....are you doing it as NaOH lye or KOH (since you'd use more)?

My theory is, I want to use 85% KOH and 15% NaOH. Has anyone tried this? It never occurred to me to do this.

 

[Mark the Box Guy]

Happy Halloween.... I'm bringing this thread back to life.

My theory is, I want to use 85% KOH and 15% NaOH. Has anyone tried this? It never occurred to me to do this.

We like this thread, so bringing it back to life isn't really a bad thing

As for mixing KOH and NaOH: DeeAnna did this back on page 10, and found that it hardened up the soap nicely. Take a look.

 

[roguehippo]

Okay. Thanks. I wasn't sure if I read it or not. My eyes start crossing after a while. Lol.


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[DeeAnna]

Three molecules of KOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Three molecules of NaOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Sounds easy peasy, right? But there's a catch -- one molecule of KOH weighs more than one molecule of NaOH.

Let's say you need 100 molecules of each kind of lye to correctly saponify a soap recipe. Since we can't count molecules, then measuring by weight is the only reasonable option. 100 molecules of KOH and 100 molecules of NaOH will be different weights.

There are several ways to figure the correct weight of the two lyes to make your soap. Some people use the summerbeemeadow.com soap calculator. It will allow you to specify the percentages of the two lyes and figure the recipe directly.

Another way to figure the lye is to use your favorite soap recipe calculator. Calculate the exact same soap recipe twice, but use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version.

For the first version, the recipe calculator will tell you how much NaOH that you would need to use if you wanted NaOH as ALL of the lye. In the second version, it will tell you how much KOH you would need to use if KOH was ALL of the lye.

Since you want a mixture of 15% NaOH and 85% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.15. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.85. That will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 15% NaOH and 85% KOH.

Hope this helps.

 

[SomethingGoodAustin]

Well, as long as we're resurrecting this thread... I've been playing with different proportions of KOH and NaOH. I used Skatergirl46's modified recipe with hemp and jojoba and a proportion of 70% KOH and 30% NaOH. Came out with an extreeeemely soft bar, but still sliceable. Lather was lovely and very moisturizing--I honestly can't tell the difference between this and most shaving gels/creams I've used in the past. However, there's no way it'd ship without being in a jar of some sort.

Since it was so soft, I skipped over 60/40 and went straight to 50/50. Much firmer, but still pliable. It takes a little longer to load the brush, of course, but it holds its shape, is very sliceable, and still feels great. I've also tried adding a touch of shea butter, both for conditioning and for marketing purposes--that one came out a hair firmer, even with a slightly lower stearic number on soapcalc. Weird.

I'm going to try one more test batch with 60/40 KOH and NaOH, (for science!) to see if I can hit my Goldilocks-just-right mark, but I think I've found my jam, as the kids say.

 

[Mark the Box Guy]

I'm still stunned by everyone's attempt to slice a soft soap. I suppose that it can't be rubbed on someone's legs or Lady Business (thanks JaimeM); it must be smushed.

Soft Shaving Soap = Jar
Hard Shaving Soap = Bar

Them's the rules, babies.

 

[Skatergirl46]

Well, as long as we're resurrecting this thread... I've been playing with different proportions of KOH and NaOH. I used Skatergirl46's modified recipe with hemp and jojoba and a proportion of 70% KOH and 30% NaOH. Came out with an extreeeemely soft bar, but still sliceable. Lather was lovely and very moisturizing--I honestly can't tell the difference between this and most shaving gels/creams I've used in the past. However, there's no way it'd ship without being in a jar of some sort.

Since it was so soft, I skipped over 60/40 and went straight to 50/50. Much firmer, but still pliable. It takes a little longer to load the brush, of course, but it holds its shape, is very sliceable, and still feels great. I've also tried adding a touch of shea butter, both for conditioning and for marketing purposes--that one came out a hair firmer, even with a slightly lower stearic number on soapcalc. Weird.

I'm going to try one more test batch with 60/40 KOH and NaOH, (for science!) to see if I can hit my Goldilocks-just-right mark, but I think I've found my jam, as the kids say.

Yeah, mine is too soft also. I have some in a shaving mug that I am currently using. I like the soft skin and the shave I get from it but I would like to have an actual bar that is hard enough to be in a soap dish and be used without a brush if so desired. I'm eagerly awaiting your results from the 60/40 batch.

Did you use SL in yours?

DeeAnna thank you for that explanation of the differences in weight between KOH and NaOH. That helped me to understand. I want to make a batch with both soon.

 

[SomethingGoodAustin]

Skatergirl, I didn't use any SL--I haven't worked with it much and wasn't sure in what proportion to add it for this formula. Combining KOH and NaOH seemed more straightforward and likely to get measurable results. But I'll definitely check back in and let folks know how the 60/40 batch turned out.

 

[ourwolfden]

While looking for lye at Rural King I found a product called Main Line Cleaner. According to the label and it’s MSDS sheet it is made up of both Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide. I went ahead a bought it for this project (at $10 a gallon I can deal with running it down one of my drains if I can’t use it for soap). I just sent an e-mail to their customer service department explaining what I want to do with it and asking them if they could tell me what percent of each they use. I know this maybe proprietary but it never hurts to ask!

 

[DeeAnna]

Even if the proportion of lyes (NaOH and KOH) is acceptable, your drain-cleaner solution may well not be concentrated enough. The liquid drain cleaner I checked into was much too dilute. You want about 28% lye solution or higher to make soap. If you were to use a lye solution that is less concentrated than that, the soap could very easily not set up properly or could separate in the mold into an oil layer and water layer.