I made a royal mistake...

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lionprincess00

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And I need your help! Ahh!
Made 2 lotion batches. Same amount and ingredients. Labeled the cool down ingredients together, labeled one MA for my mom, and mine with my name. Cool down ingredients were ipm, fo, and optiphen. I also planned a soap and premeasured my fragrance at the soapy station and left it unlabeled. They were in identical containers saran wrapped. Can you guess what happened next?!?!

My personal lotion batch.
454 total grams
5% ewax 23 grams
2% stearic acid 9 grams
5% shea 23 grams
15% sweet almond 68 grams
1% optiphen 5 grams
68.5% water 311 grams
Now....
It was supposed to have
3% ipm 13 grams
.5% fo 2 grams

And.......I dumped in my 1 oz fo blend intended for soap!
1 oz! My calculations show that to be 28.35 grams!
It was a blend- .3 oz vanilla rosewood bb, .4oz sandalwood ot, .3oz rosewood fo wsp.

No ipm, no preservative, and an oz of fo! What do i do? Ot and bb dont list ifra guidelines and I'm only getting bb mobile site, the desktop may list it??? Smells not overwhelming, kinda like a cologne.

Do i dump out and total the weight, subtract 3% and blend ipm, subtract 1% and add optiphen, or do i dump it out and add more lotion to make the fo % of total reasonable? Thank you all for your help!!

EDIT
I did a cross multiply.
28 grams fo i used is to x grams total
As
2 original grams fo was to 454 original grams total
I got 28 grams fo will be needed in 6,356 total grams to be at .5% which is 224 oz.

I'm thinking I can't save this?
 
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snappyllama

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If you don't want a vat of lotion... I'd be tempted to try to fiddle what you've got into a soap mainly because I'm curious about what the ewax would be like. Plus I hate to throw things out when I could just possibly waste a few more ingredients on a failure. ;)

So I played on SoapCalc for a minute and came up with this test recipe that keeps your FO to .5oz ppo, keeps your water amount that same, and makes about 2lbs of soap. You'd just need to up your Sweet Almond oil, add Lard, add CO, and some lye. The ewax and stearic will not play nicely, but there really isn't that much in...

Possibly a disaster, but who knows??

 

lionprincess00

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If you don't want a vat of lotion... I'd be tempted to try to fiddle what you've got into a soap mainly because I'm curious about what the ewax would be like. Plus I hate to throw things out when I could just possibly waste a few more ingredients on a failure. ;)

So I played on SoapCalc for a minute and came up with this test recipe that keeps your FO to .5oz ppo, keeps your water amount that same, and makes about 2lbs of soap. You'd just need to up your Sweet Almond oil, add Lard, add CO, and some lye. The ewax and stearic will not play nicely, but there really isn't that much in...

Possibly a disaster, but who knows??

You and I are on the same wavelength, I thought of this last night haha! My thinking was ewax wont turn to fatty salt, so it'll be similar to jojoba oil (isn't it high in unsaps)??? Stearic was a tad intimidating, would I have to crock pot it and hp? Without the cool down ingredients, it could right possibly be turned into soap. Thanks snappy. You've given me the courage to investigate this now.
 
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snappyllama

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Personally, I'd try to CP it first since the FO is already in there, plus the stearic acid and ewax are such low overall portions. I'd probably use a double boiler to melt the oils instead of the microwave, color the oils before adding the lye solution, soap hot and move quickly to mold.

I'd keep a crockpot handy just in case.

ETA: Oh jeepers, I cannot believe I didn't think of this. The lye solution!!! You have the right water amount, but it wasn't used to dissolve the lye. It's already in in the oils. So you need to add 128gm more water just to dissolve the lye. It would work, but those bars are going to be pretty warped when the excess of water finally evaporates out.

I'd probably still do it, because I never let common sense get the better of me. :)
 
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lionprincess00

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Personally, I'd try to CP it first since the FO is already in there, plus the stearic acid and ewax are such low overall portions. I'd probably use a double boiler to melt the oils instead of the microwave, color the oils before adding the lye solution, soap hot and move quickly to mold.

I'd keep a crockpot handy just in case.

ETA: Oh jeepers, I cannot believe I didn't think of this. The lye solution!!! You have the right water amount, but it wasn't used to dissolve the lye. It's already in in the oils. So you need to add 128gm more water just to dissolve the lye. It would work, but those bars are going to be pretty warped when the excess of water finally evaporates out.

I'd probably still do it, because I never let common sense get the better of me. :)
I've realized the water issue. I'm trying to work off your recipe tweaking it now. I really don't want 5lbs of soap lol, but looks like I may wind up with it. I love this simple soap, and have always been so focused on swirling I've never taken the time to try it. Now is my chance! (See pic) I'll update with a recipe check. Oh. One last thing. I had appx an oz left over i poured into a bottle with mom's lotion, which i can no longer get out and use since it is combined. I subtracted an oz, converting to grams, and adjusted the shea, almond etc accordingly. Pretty good at math so I'm confident my calculations won't be too far off.

Screenshot_2016-02-14-07-56-32.jpg
 

lionprincess00

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Ok, i am low on almond oil so i upped shea to 5% and castor a tad higher. Have a ton of lard. It will be a little water logged. Is it a known fact water and lye absolutely MUST be at LEAST a 1:1 ratio?

How's this look? Good grief, can you read it?!

Screenshot_2016-02-14-10-56-14.jpg
 

DeeAnna

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A 50% lye concentration is a practical maximum. The theoretical tables say approximately 52% lye concentration is tops for a solution at 60 deg F. You might be able to get away with a higher % if you keep it hot, but I don't have any practical experience to share about how to do this. Hope this helps!
 
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lionprincess00

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A 50% lye concentration is a practical maximum. The theoretical tables say approximately 52% lye concentration is tops at room temperature.
You're a lovely woman, thank you!!! I'm adding bare minimum to lye. This will obviously take a long cure. I'm thinking 4-6 months perhaps?
If you can't read,
Almond 10.86% 100 gr, had 64 (adjusted per loss of an oz) so add 36
Castor 6.51% 60 gr
CO 18.46% 170 gr
Lard 57.55% 530 gr
Shea 5.65% 52 gr, has 22 (adjusted per loss of an oz) add 30
Stearic .98% 9 gr

27.3% lye concentration full water
Water 350 grams, already has 311, difference of 39 grams
Lye 131 grams
At 52% lye concentration that showed to be 121.31 grams water is needed to dissolve the 131.42 grams lye.

I have 311 grams water in the lotion base. Adding the 52% figures of 121.31 grams water puts full water content to 432.31 grams in finished soap.
Yeah going to need a heafty cure.

I'll probably remain a 1:1 ratio for safety.

Thank you both again!
 

DeeAnna

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I updated my earlier post to be more accurate, but my edits don't really change matters -- I think I too would stick with 50% max if I were in your shoes.

I don't think the stearic at 1% is going to give you much trouble. Can't say anything about what the e-wax will do as far as accelerating trace or whatever -- I'm really curious how that will go for you.
 

lionprincess00

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Im thinking ewax will make a waxy feel maybe like pko and hard bar. At less than 1% I'm ok with the stearic.
Running an additional 23 grams of ewax to the mix, it is 2.44% of the total. Hopefully thats low enough to keep thing calm. I'm going to have 12 bars of this, quite interested to see the results! Will of course keep everyone updated. Thank you again snappy and deeanna.
 

Seawolfe

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Wow if it works you will be like the people who add "lotion to every bar"!
Im dying to see if this works too - good luck and safe soaping!!
 

cmzaha

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Not knowing which E Wax you used but E-Wax NF (Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60) has a Sap of 14.0. If you look up the ingredients for your Wax you can many times find the sap
 

lionprincess00

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Not knowing which E Wax you used but E-Wax NF (Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60) has a Sap of 14.0. If you look up the ingredients for your Wax you can many times find the sap
Well crap.
Cetylstearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 80
Not known in what proportions. It's bb. Advice anyone?

Edit, someone asked for the ratio on reviews and wasn't given an answer.
 

Seawolfe

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SWAG to 14.0? Fake it to half and let it be superfatted? Does superfatting with lotion (stable emulsification of oils and waters) mean the same as superfatting with oils?

A Random Google gave me this page - do a word search on it and it will show properties and SAPs: http://www.keyblends.com/2-uncategorised?start=40

It says PS 20 has a SAP of 48 and PS 80 has a SAP of 148

And this site http://www.kicgroup.com/cetst5050.htm

Says that cetyl stearyl alcohol has a max SAP of 0.5 - so hardly any

So if you SWAG that the proportions of alcohol and PS are similar, your SAP might be roughly 1/3 of the E-WAX Carolyn mentioned - or around 5? Might be safest to ignore it and let the excess be the SF?
 
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lionprincess00

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SWAG to 14.0? Fake it to half and let it be superfatted? Does superfatting with lotion (stable emulsification of oils and waters) mean the same as superfatting with oils?
Cetylstearyl Alcohol as on bb (everyone else on the net writes cetyl sterearyl), it's different than cetaryl alcohol, no? I googled cetylstearyl alcohol sap and got 2.0, 1.0, .5, and <4.5...any case it seems less than what carolyn posted.
 

lionprincess00

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Going for it. Here's the lotion in all its pure white light and fluffy glory. On the spatula.

20160214_142439.jpg
 

DeeAnna

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That's going to be a KOH saponification value in mg KOH per gram of "fat", because that's the traditional way sap values are given. Divide that number by 1.403 to get the NaOH sap value, which will end up being an even smaller number.

If you follow the shave soap discussions, you might remember a conversation awhile back about "stearic" acid not really being stearic acid. The normal commercial stuff is about 50% palmitic and 50% stearic because it's what they get when they break down palm oil into its fatty acids. The same is true for what they call cetylstearyl alcohol -- convert fatty acids from palm oil into their equivalent alcohols, and you get about 50% cetyl and 50% stearyl.

Go, LP, go!!!! Rootin' for ya!!!!
 

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