High cleansing numbers

[Obsidian]

I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.

You should check the numbers again. On soapcalc.net, palm kernel flakes are 66, palm kernel oil 65 and coconut oil 67.

Originally Posted by Katie-Mae
So if Palm kernel is drying like coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel flakes but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is drying.

Because you said you are sensitive to coconut, that means you need to replace it. If a soap is simply too cleansing, thats not the same as having a sensitivity.

I'm really curious to see the recipe you came up with that has such high cleansing numbers. I use 20% palm kernel and my cleansing number is 13.

 

[judymoody]

OK, having read this thread, I have some questions?

Are you and your sister sensitive to coconut oil specifically do soaps with high cleansing numbers dry you out, regardless?

Let's assume you are senstive to coconut oil. If so, eliminate it entirely and try PKO in its place. Make your recipe as usual, let it cure, and then compare to the coconut oil one. If you react similarly, then it's not coconut oil per se but the high cleansing.

IMO, babassu is nice but not nice enough to justify the upcharge in CP soap (I do use it in leave on products). I use PKO as a coconut substitute.

My current recipe has coconut oil OR palm kernel oil at 30% with a 9% superfat and it has 19 for cleansing, bubbly/creamy numbers between 25-30 and conditioning at 54. It works well for my dry skin in my dry climate. Yet it is cleansing enough for my husband and passes the "clean stinky armpits test".

5% SF makes me a bit itchy, even with CO as low as 15%. You might also try your normal recipe but double the superfat to 10% and see what happens.

 

[user 12568]

It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Lots of bubbles, but low cleansing don't really go hand-in-hand. It's a bit more of a balancing act.

I typically soap with 20% Coconut Oil which produces a cleansing number of 13 (or 14 depending on the recipe). At 8% super-fat, I find this still produced good bubbles, while not being too cleansing.

If you're willing to reduce the bubbles, you can even try substituting tallow or lard (if you don't mind using animal fats). These will still add to the firmness of the bar, but produce a more creamy lather. If you're not happy with the bubbles, try using a cloth or pouffe to lather up in the shower - they really do help.

I don't recall if you posted your full recipe in this thread, but it may help people offer further suggestions if you did. Hope this helps!

Cheers!

 

[Jeanea]

I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.

Sorry about this, that was my hard value...I was going for a hard bar with low cleaning....it was not easy

 

[Katie-Mae]

I Assume its a sensitivity Since I have made a ton of soaps ranging anywhere from 25% coconut to 15% and still have the VERY itchy skin after showering.
I say it is dry itchy skin but Im not really as dry as the itchiness make me feel.
If that makes sense? I mean I claw myself in areas till I draw blood and my sister does the same. When I lay down at night it is more of a burning itchy feel its miserable! : (

I have not yet made the soap I originally posted about as I had said I was playing around with Soapcal trying to come up with one with 10% coconut and got the high cleaning numbers.

 

[Sinful7]

Just a thought you may be having a small allergic reaction to coconut or even a different oil. If it makes you scratch until you bleed I would say that is not a normal reaction. Maybe try one without any coconut. also How long are you curing your bars before use?

 

[Katie-Mae]

It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Lots of bubbles, but low cleansing don't really go hand-in-hand. It's a bit more of a balancing act.

I typically soap with 20% Coconut Oil which produces a cleansing number of 13 (or 14 depending on the recipe). At 8% super-fat, I find this still produced good bubbles, while not being too cleansing.

If you're willing to reduce the bubbles, you can even try substituting tallow or lard (if you don't mind using animal fats). These will still add to the firmness of the bar, but produce a more creamy lather. If you're not happy with the bubbles, try using a cloth or pouffe to lather up in the shower - they really do help.

I don't recall if you posted your full recipe in this thread, but it may help people offer further suggestions if you did. Hope this helps!

Cheers!

I do not have to have HUGE bubbles I would like a creamy lather atleast I mean I do want to see a few bubbles here and there is possible. Lol
I have a soap that don't lather at all unless I put it in a soap pouch it is new I have only used it 4 times now but it seems to be the only one so far that don't make me miserable.
They are soap bars that I was actually disappointed with because there was no lather (go figure)

As for lard and tallow I don't prefer to use them and have a few vegan and vegetarian family members so I stay away from that as much as possible.
I usually make 1 goat milk soap for the one craft fair I do 4 times a year and there and a few goat milk lotions but that's about it.

I have been wondering about Crisco any ideas or suggestions on that?

 

[Sinful7]

Also what FO or EO's are being used and in what amounts?

 

[Sinful7]

Lmao sorry reading this on my phone. Perhaps if I read the ENTIRE thread I'd find those answers.

 

[Katie-Mae]

Just a thought you may be having a small allergic reaction to coconut or even a different oil. If it makes you scratch until you bleed I would say that is not a normal reaction. Maybe try one without any coconut. also How long are you curing your bars before use?

I cure them anywhere from 6 weeks to 12 weeks but I always have left overs from the craft fair that get thrown in a box until I decide to give them away or use them so I have some that are a year old that still do the same.
I had been thinking allergy because my WHOLE family have allergies to every fruit and nut know to man! but I use coconut oil for cooking although it is small amounts maybe 1/2 to 1 tbs at a time so I'm not sure if that would be it.
I can say I cannot eat raw coconut due to allergies so that's what got me to thinking maybe an allergy.
I run a full time business(not soap related) and give my employees and customers soap and none of them have said anything about them being drying or making them itch.
My house keeper thinks all the soaps I give her are Awesome LOL

 

[Katie-Mae]

Lmao sorry reading this on my phone. Perhaps if I read the ENTIRE thread I'd find those answers.

LOL its fine I have used different FO and EO But I made an unscented one not long ago that I thought was awesome but 30 minutes to an hour after my shower I still Itched it didn't seem AS bad and it was the one I was using the most it had 18% Coconut oil BUT I used coconut milk also.
But I have been using babassu along with my coconut oil because I stumbled on a page where someone had said she used half coconut and half babassu so I thought I would try that.

And as far as the FO & EO I use them in my lotions and bath salts and scubs & they don't bother me so it is definitely an ingredient in the soap.

 

[Katie-Mae]

OK, having read this thread, I have some questions?

Are you and your sister sensitive to coconut oil specifically do soaps with high cleansing numbers dry you out, regardless?

Let's assume you are senstive to coconut oil. If so, eliminate it entirely and try PKO in its place. Make your recipe as usual, let it cure, and then compare to the coconut oil one. If you react similarly, then it's not coconut oil per se but the high cleansing.

IMO, babassu is nice but not nice enough to justify the upcharge in CP soap (I do use it in leave on products). I use PKO as a coconut substitute.

My current recipe has coconut oil OR palm kernel oil at 30% with a 9% superfat and it has 19 for cleansing, bubbly/creamy numbers between 25-30 and conditioning at 54. It works well for my dry skin in my dry climate. Yet it is cleansing enough for my husband and passes the "clean stinky armpits test".

5% SF makes me a bit itchy, even with CO as low as 15%. You might also try your normal recipe but double the superfat to 10% and see what happens.

LOL well I'm glad the soap passed the arm pit test.
My husband refuses to use any soap that don't make a really big bubbly lather and they ALL have to contain coffee grounds. Let me sneak a left over soap of any kind and I have to listen to him cry about it Until I give in and make him his COFFEE soap. MEN!!

So would you say even if I replaced the coconut oil completely with Palm Kernal not to even use the Babassu?
I guess I have let that one person saying she had good results using Babassu stick in my head and am determine I need it. :-|

 

[grayceworks]

If you are allergic to eating coconut, you may very well be reacting to the coconut oil in the soap. Some allergic people can use it if it's completely saponified, but some people can't -- and since your soap has a 7% SF, not all of your oil is saponified, so you have raw coconut oil.

If it was simply dry skin, you might notice tightness and some itchiness, but the itchiness you're describing is either severe eczema or an allergic reaction.

ETA-- If you are allergic to coconut oil, keep an eye out for sensitivities to other 'nut' oils, (even though coconuts are not really nuts, they are the seeds of the coconut palm) even palm KERNEL oil, which is sortof related. It's going to be trial and error though. You might do a couple small batches, one replacing all coconut with all pko, and another doing the same with babassu, and see how your skin reacts.