Help for beginner needed CP soap + Oven Time!

[Mariash]

Hi!

I made an Olive-Oil Recipe from a book and it went really well. Wanting to increase Olive Oil content and also put the giant tub of Palm Oil I bought 6 moths ago into use, I used SoapCal for the following recipe (took a photo of the recipe).


My Lye got cold a lot sooner than I was ready for (one minute it was too hot, and one house dusting too long later and it was too cool!) and was probably around 85-90 degrees when I mixed it with my oils. My oils may have been a few degrees hotter? Could it have impacted the results? I separated the batch in half and added fragrance (BB fragrance), and I used only the stick blender to achieve pudding consistency, with a trace that I thought was ok.


I poured my mélange in silicone molds, covered with plastic wrap and put into oven that had been warmed at 170F and turned off. I left it there until next morning. Next day I put it in my unheated solarium (winter freezing temps) and left it there for a couple of weeks.


It like the soap is soft and has not hardened properly? I’ve looked and looked and I cannot seem to match it with an issue (not ricing, not brain soap). It does seem little like it cooked, but it didn’t go full volcano?


What to I do with it now? Should I grate it and re-batch?


Thanks for your help! I really don’t know what to do with this, or how to prevent the issue in the future

 

[jcandleattic]

I separated the batch in half and added fragrance (BB fragrance), and I used only the stick blender to achieve pudding consistency, with a trace that I thought was ok.

Did you separate before you brought to trace? That could really impact the end result by having too much lye solution in 1 half and not enough in the other half.

Could it have impacted the results?

Not really. It may impact whether the soap gels or not, but if made correctly soap will become soap whether it gels or not.

I can't really see your totals in the attachment (even when I click on it) to know how much of each oil you used/percentages, or the lye/water amount. If you could clarify that we might be able to help better.

 

[dixiedragon]

I tentatively want to say it wasn't mixed enough. How quickly did it go to pudding? it is possible that your oils were cool enough that you got false trace. Meaning that the "trace" is caused by the cool oils becoming thicker, and not by the chemical reaction. If your oils were 85 and your lye was 85, that could be the culprit.

 

[Obsidian]

The air pockets on the surface that was touching the mold is called silicone rash, its something that can happen when the soap gets a bit too warm when forcing gel in a hot oven. Its just cosmetic and doesn't mean anything is wrong.

As far as it being a bit soft, its a high oliec soap that has been in the molds for two weeks. You need to unmold it, get it cut and put it in normal room temps so it can start to cure. You used quite a lot of water, this can keep your soap soft for awhile.

I would zap test, if it passes then its perfectly fine and just needs a nice long cure. For future reference, lye and oils do not need to be the same temp. Many people use room temp or chilled lye with no issues. You just don't want to use excessively hot lye or oils, that can increase the possibility of a volcano. I like to soap around 100 F.

 

[Nao]

Did you leave the soap in the silicone mould with plastic wrap on during the whole cure? I’m thinking there would be little chance of water evaporating and might contribute to the soap not firming up properly.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I would also suggest making 500g batches when trying out something new. If there had been a major issue with this batch (or that you simply don't care for how the recipe works as a bar) then you have a lot of soap on your hands

 

[cmzaha]

That was a large batch. I agree with EG go smaller and it does look like a dandy case of silicone rash. It is also pretty high in the cleansing department with 21% lauric acid. Palm Kernel Oil and Coconut Oil are both cleansing oils that most do not use over 20% with the two combined. Why did you mention it did not go into full volcano? Volcano is something you do not want to happen. Hopefully it did not come from the Hot Process Fluid Method thread. That thread had a lot of bad info

 

[earlene]

So it was in the oven, heated to 170°F, but you had already turned the oven off, right? And left it there with the plastic wrap covering overnight. Did you tap the mold on the counter to get out air bubbles after filling the mold? It looks like a lot of air bubble throughout in that third picture, but it's hard to tell unless you cut into it. The flaky, almost crystalline looking residue inside of the red round individual mold looks unusual to me. I haven't seen that before that I can recall. But you say it was in extremely cold environment for two weeks, still in the molds, so I wonder if the liquid still inside the soap didn't freeze while it was in the solarium? It is a full water recipe, so there was a lot of water that could have frozen.

Did you allow the molds and soap to come back up to room temperature after you brought them back into the house, or were they still freezing cold? Either way, I am wondering if the softness isn't related to the freezing and then melting of the water that was still in the soap.

I could be totally off, but from what you describe, and the way I see the photos, that would be my first impression.

 

[penelopejane]

I think Earlene might be right.

But the PKO, palm and CO were also probably a bit too cold to get good saponification in the beginning. If it were me next time try and soap around 110* F if you are using those oils. They need to be melted from my POV anyway.

Also next time I would keep it at room temp after bringing it out of the oven. You should be able to unmold that recipe around 12-24 hrs. A bit longer for individual cavity molds.

 

[Mariash]

Thanks for your replies and answers! Here are a few of my answers to your questions:

Q.1 (jcandleattic) Did you separate before you brought to trace? That could really impact the end result by having too much lye solution in 1 half and not enough in the other half.

A.1 Hum, a little a both. I mixed (stick blender) the lye with the oils and when I saw it was starting to trace, I separated, added the fragrance in one part, and then mixed that part to trace and poured in mould and then I added fragrance to the 2nd pot and so on...​

Q.2 (jcandleattic) I can't really see your totals in the attachment (even when I click on it) to know how much of each oil you used/percentages, or the lye/water amount. If you could clarify that we might be able to help better.

A.2
Avocado Oil 16 ounces
Olive Oil 12.80
Palm Kernel Oil Flaked hydrogenated 9.60
Palm Oil 16.00
Coconut Oil 76 deg 6.40
Castor Oil 3.20
Fragrance 2.00 (1.00 per half batch)
64 oz Oil weight
35% water/oil ratio
Lye at 28.5% (ratio 2,5083:1)​

Q.3 (dixiedragon) I tentatively want to say it wasn't mixed enough. How quickly did it go to pudding?

A.3 It's possible my trace wasn't "solid or fat enough". It's not like a blob could hold on the surface... I was maybe too afraid it would become unworkable too fast (horror stories I read, you know...)​

C.4 (Obsidian) To Obsidian: I thought silicone rash was a "dusting" surface thing, I had no idea it could produce such a thick coating! Thanks! (see additional pics below)

Q.5 (Nao) Did you leave the soap in the silicone mould with plastic wrap on during the whole cure? I’m thinking there would be little chance of water evaporating and might contribute to the soap not firming up properly.

A.5 I did! But the plastic wrap wouldn't really stick to the silicone and I didn't want to stick it directly to the surface of the soap mix either. When I put my "pudding" mix into the loaf moulds, they came to about 2 cm from the top. After "cooking" they came to the top and I think, at that point, the surface of the soap mix came into contact with the plastic wrap and stayed there. (see additional pics)​

Q.6 (cmzaha) Why did you mention it did not go into full volcano?

Don't worry, I know I don't want that but I thought it might have happened to some degree because the volume increased and instead of keeping the nice glossy pudding aspect on top, the surface became rough, white, and doughy (really, like rising dough for bread).​

Q.7 (earlene) So it was in the oven, heated to 170°F, but you had already turned the oven off, right? And left it there with the plastic wrap covering overnight. Did you tap the mold on the counter to get out air bubbles after filling the mould?

A.7 Yes. and yes, I turned it off. I didn't tap the mould to get air bubbles out. Thanks! I'll make sure to do that next time.​

It looks like a lot of air bubble throughout in that third picture, but it's hard to tell unless you cut into it. The flaky, almost crystalline looking residue inside of the red round individual mold looks unusual to me. I haven't seen that before that I can recall. But you say it was in extremely cold environment for two weeks, still in the molds, so I wonder if the liquid still inside the soap didn't freeze while it was in the solarium?

That's probably it! I just unfolded the soaps and the rest of the soaps that were in the flower mould aren't as terrible as the first one, but it they are still not nearly pretty enough for anything else than home use.​

(pics in next reply)

Here are the pics! (you'll see there's all kinds of going wrongs inside too! The soap is usable, just not pretty

Lessons learned:
1) A bigger batch does not save hassle or time...
2) Take more time for a better trace before pouring into moulds...
3) Check and note temperatures of oils and lye mix more often...
4) Do not cover with plastic wrap...
5) Let cool at room temp...
6) Try silicone again, but if it doesn't make a pretty soap, just go back to milk cartons...

Thank you thank you thank you!

 

[earlene]

Well I don't see any airholes on the inside the cut bars at all, so that's nice. They look pretty smooth on the inside. It does look like glycerin rivers, but that's only cosmetic and some people really like them (I do.) Or maybe your FO caused some discoloration and those are swirls? Anyway, I think with a nice trimming along the edges, they'll look really pretty.

The 'bread dough rising' look is really quite interesting! I don't have any idea why it would look like that other than the heat. But that second cut bar really does look like the sides rose up the mold, but the middle didn't or if it was a soufflé, I'd say the soufflé fell. Not sure how that translates to soap, though.

In my experience using plastic wrap is fine and I don't have any trouble with it during CPOP or before unmolding.

Again, I do believe they will be pretty once cleaned up a bit. Have you zap tested yet?

 

[ItsForrest]

Maybe I missed it but what was the FO?
I had a batch react badly with a FO I bought from Hobby Lobby which was most likely meant for MP soap and not CP. The bars were gooey three days after pouring when I finally took them out of the molds anyway. I got that silicone rash and odd, lumpy texture on top and the bars were greasy for over a month. The FO apparently oozed out of the soap and never reabsorbed.

Also, for the OP part of CPOP, I have found that doing the 170 deg and turn off heats up my soap too much. I have had a couple loaves of soap bubble a bit in the middle when doing that. Now if I CPOP I just turn on the oven light for a couple hours and that keeps it warm enough to encourage gel but not overheat.