Giving up

[Michele50]

Gecko, how do you manage to soap so cool with all your butters and hard oils? I only make small batches too, but I've been soaping hotter because the oils get cloudy when they cool off too much. I would love to soap at a cooler temp, but I've been worried that if I do, the hard oils might not get mixed in completely.

Me too @Carly B; the coolest I soap is about 5 degrees warmer than the melting point of my highest hard oil, which is palm. I figure it (palm's melting tmep) at 97 from what I found online, so I like my oils and lye solution to be close to 102-105 so that I don't get false trace. With CO and Palm and Lard my oils are clear a bit above 100 and I try to stay within just a few degrees of my lye solution. I know 10 degrees is okay but I shoot for it to be within just a few.

When I checked on Cocoa Butter and Shea (by Googling it) I found about 101 is the melting point of the highest. I guess my 102-105 would be okay if I used these but I'm just beginning to soap cooler so I don't want to borrow trouble

"....How about instead of stick blending to trace, just hand stir a bit more? .... You don't necessarily need trace to make a nice swirl. As long as the batter has reached emulsion it will set (might just take a bit longer)

I feel like HO sunflower or refined SAO give me a huge amount of swirling time. RBO seems to accelerate on me though .....

I mixed my batter to emulsion, then separated off small bits of batter that I SB...

All good points.
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I just want to comment that I love this forum!! There are SOOO many who know a great deal and they're so eager to assist we who have less knowledge/experience. With many chiming in to respond to all kinds of questions over the board topics within it, each person adding their experiences and knowledge, much useful info is presented.

The short answer here is YES! And I personally would recommend that! I usually add my EO/FO at the very last bit because that is mostly the reason things go wonky. As long as your batter has emulsified - you're good to go!

Yup, and I know many of us also might have our FO/EO proportioned out for our main container and our smaller containers of colored soap batter. If our design doesn't call for all of our batter to be placed in the mold at or near to the same time then waiting until right before it's needed (then adding the Fragrance) will give even more time to carry out the many steps of a more intricate design.

 

[Arimara]

Yeah it probably will but it will be flippin expensive with all those oils I can't just get off the shelf. Also it is probably more complicated for someone of my skill level.

When I started soaping, I just jumped into it. I bought my NaOH, oils and cocoa butter and went for it. Needless to say, I think I came out fine because of it since my soaps came out fine. In any case, I think you should just try what you can afford to try but play around with your recipes to see what works for you. Since some oils are obviously more expensive than others, maybe you could try form animal fats since they generally make lovely soap. beef tallow and lard are two of the most common tallows that we use, can be used separate for nice enough soaps (putting that lightly) or together to make a really nice soap. Just use a little more lard than tallow since beef tallow tends to be a little more cleansing than a soap calculator would suggest.

 

[TheGecko]

It may be my blender is more aggressive than hers or maybe due to inexperience and also not knowing what her batter consists of my better firms up so I can't pour the colours into the main mix then from there into the mould. I know the technique, I'm not good enough to know how the batter is acting. I will leave the stick blender in the cupboard from now on and stick with the whisk. If it takes a day longer to unmould but I get my swirls it's not too much of a hardship.

I had a real problem with stick blending in the beginning. Watching all those folks on YouTube waving their stick blenders around like magic wands and making layers and swirls and all sorts of fancy designs...and I would get pudding. I thought it was my batter too...which is was in a way, just not the ingredients...it was the size of my batter. I was watching folks who were making anywhere from 10 to 25 lbs of batter, while I was make 1 to 2 lbs. So yeah, I was WAY over blending my batter. And of course, it doesn't help that I have a BEAST of a stick blender, at least in comparison to the size of my batter.

So I thought back to the soap class I had taken about six years ago...aside from the fact that we looked like a biohazard team handling a combination of liquid explosives and Ebola, it was soap making at its most basic....candy thermometer, whisk, large spoon and a juice carton. I was the only one who brought a scent...that I bought from Hobby Lobby. Six weeks later I was bathing with the ugliest bar of soap probably ever created by a human being*, but it was soap.

* - I tried to unmold too soon and it stuck to the carton and it stuck to the knife and I had to reshape it a bit.

Please feel free to use my recipe (as always, run any recipe through SoapCalc). If you don't have Cocoa or Shea Butter, increase the Coconut and Palm Oils to 25% and Olive Oil to 45%. I freeze my Distilled Water into cubes, no fumes and I don't have to wait for it to cool down (I like to soap at cooler temps when adding color and scents).

Start with a 1 pound batch (16 ounces/500 grams)...no color, no scent to get a 'feel' for the recipe. After you pour the Lye Solution into your oils, note how it all sinks to the bottom and there is a distinct separation between the oils and the water. Now give it a bit of a rough stir with your spatula for about 10 seconds and watch what happens; the water and oils will separate into their two layers, but you will note the start of a third layer in the middle...this is where the two have started to blend, aka 'emulsify'. Now give it a good 30 second whisk and take a look at how many layers you have. If you're not sure, look at the top of your batter...do you see any oil (shiny spots) floating on top?

'Trace' and 'emulsification' are pretty much one and the same (though some may disagree)...it's the point where your oils and water are mixed together and will not separate back to their original form. It is my humble opinion that the reason why 'light trace' is emphasized as the goal to achieve when first starting soap making is simply to make sure that you have blended your oils and water correctly. But the truth of the matter is, once your oils and lye solution has emulsified, 'trace' is redundant because if you walk away from that bowl and come back in 24 hours, it will have saponified and you'll have a bowl of soap.

The time to unmold and cut this recipe can vary from 12 hours to 3 days. Insulted and in a 80F warm garage...12 hours. Covered with a bit to prevent soda ash and in a 60F garage...about 36 hours to unmold and another 12 hours to cut. As the weather continues to cool and it's raining five days a week...it'll take longer unless I keep it in the house. My husband is looking at building me an insulted drying box or I'm guessing 10 to 12 weeks to cure my soap in the garage.

When I first got into soap making, it was with the sole intent of making myself some Black Raspberry Vanilla Goat Milk Soap...that's it. Not quite a year later I talking about emulsification and temperatures and have sucked into the science of it all...and I don't even like science. But I do like soap, and I want make a good soap...not just for me, but for my family and friends, and to perfect strangers so when I retire, I won't have to share my cat's food. There is this video...it's a mirror glaze technique with four shades of the same color and it beyond beautiful! I really, really, REALLY want to make it, but I know I'm not ready. I first need to learn how to roll over and get up on my knees, and then to crawl. And then to pull myself up to the sofa and cruise the furniture until I can walk solo. And once I get that down...then I can run.

 

[Michele50]

Here is my recipe
16oz Olive, 16oz Coconut, 16oz Palm, 2 oz Castor oils. 16.5 oz Water, 7.3 oz lye, I got this from SoapQueen. Hope this helps?

I actually have run a new recipe through soap calc. Please tell me what you think? I need all the help I can get. My new recipe is for a smaller batch, so less cost and waste. Olive 10.40 oz, Coco 4.32 oz, Caster 1.28 oz, Water 6.08 oz, Lye 2.25 oz. fragrance 0.5 oz

Your 2nd recipe here will give you a weaker/less concentrated lye solution (more water percentage) than the 1st recipe which seemed to thicken quicker than you desired. This should give you more time providing you use the SB in very short bursts and stir in between the few bursts so you can note the changes in the mixture 'slowly' as you aim for emulsion.

Just as @Mobjack Bay mentioned

Many of the experienced soap makers on Youtube are using very thin batter and I personally think that stage can be very tricky for beginners. It was for me! .....

If you continue to have issues stopping at emulsion you could still make decorative soaps with swirls using a couple of colors. Below is one soap I made with a couple of colors. I did this when I was fairly new (1 year in) to making soap even though my lye concentration was 30.30, I soaped at 125-ish temp, and SB-ing until thin trace.

Once you get comfortable with all the steps you can work towards stopping at emulsion--just a suggestion so you don't become so frustrated you quit altogether. NOT that you have to wait as long as I did (3 yrs) to tackle this "tricky for beginners" stage; I was having fun with all the designs I "can" do with the higher temps / stronger lye concentration to focus on emulsion/cool temps. There are lots of nice designs, someone mentioned a pot swirl--those are pretty--and can be done at a thin trace.

I had a real problem with stick blending in the beginning. Watching all those folks on YouTube waving their stick blenders around like magic wands and making layers and swirls and all sorts of fancy designs...and would get pudding. I thought it was my batter too...which is was in a way, just not the ingredients...it was the size of my batter. I was watching folks who were making anywhere from 10 to 25 lbs of batter, while I was make 1 to 2 lbs. So yeah, I was WAY over blending my batter. And of course, it doesn't help that I have a BEAST of a stick blender, at least in comparison to the size of my batter.

So I thought back to the soap class I had taken about six years ago...aside from the fact that we looked like a biohazard team handling a combination of liquid explosives and Ebola, it was soap making at its most basic....candy thermometer, whisk, large spoon and a juice carton. I was the only one who brought a scent...that I bought from Hobby Lobby. Six weeks later I was bathing with the ugliest bar of soap probably ever created by a human being*, but it was soap.

* - I tried to unmold too soon and it stuck to the carton and it stuck to the knife and I had to reshape it a bit.

Please feel free to use my recipe (as always, run any recipe through SoapCalc). If you don't have Cocoa or Shea Butter, increase the Coconut and Palm Oils to 25% and Olive Oil to 45%. I freeze my Distilled Water into cubes, no fumes and I don't have to wait for it to cool down (I like to soap at cooler temps when adding color and scents).

Start with a 1 pound batch (16 ounces/500 grams)...no color, no scent to get a 'feel' for the recipe. After you pour the Lye Solution into your oils, note how it all sinks to the bottom and there is a distinct separation between the oils and the water. Now give it a bit of a rough stir with your spatula for about 10 seconds and watch what happens; the water and oils will separate into their two layers, but you will note the start of a third layer in the middle...this is where the two have started to blend, aka 'emulsify'. Now give it a good 30 second whisk and take a look at how many layers you have. If you're not sure, look at the top of your batter...do you see any oil (shiny spots) floating on top?

'Trace' and 'emulsification' are pretty much one and the same (though some may disagree)...it's the point where your oils and water are mixed together and will not separate back to their original form. It is my humble opinion that the reason why 'light trace' is emphasized as the goal to achieve when first starting soap making is simply to make sure that you have blended your oils and water correctly. But the truth of the matter is, once your oils and lye solution has emulsified, 'trace' is redundant because if you walk away from that bowl and come back in 24 hours, it will have saponified and you'll have a bowl of soap.

The time to unmold and cut this recipe can vary from 12 hours to 3 days. Insulted and in a 80F warm garage...12 hours. Covered with a bit to prevent soda ash and in a 60F garage...about 36 hours to unmold and another 12 hours to cut. As the weather continues to cool and it's raining five days a week...it'll take longer unless I keep it in the house. My husband is looking at building me an insulted drying box or I'm guessing 10 to 12 weeks to cure my soap in the garage.

When I first got into soap making, it was with the sole intent of making myself some Black Raspberry Vanilla Goat Milk Soap...that's it. Not quite a year later I talking about emulsification and temperatures and have sucked into the science of it all...and I don't even like science. But I do like soap, and I want make a good soap...not just for me, but for my family and friends, and to perfect strangers so when I retire, I won't have to share my cat's food. There is this video...it's a mirror glaze technique with four shades of the same color and it beyond beautiful! I really, really, REALLY want to make it, but I know I'm not ready. I first need to learn how to roll over and get up on my knees, and then to crawl. And then to pull myself up to the sofa and cruise the furniture until I can walk solo. And once I get that down...then I can run.

SO WELL PUT! All of it!

 

[MGM]

I just made a soap that took over 45 minutes to pour, made up of 5 colours and scented. I will post the recipe just as soon as I've rested a bit, since prepping everything took another hour and apparently 2hrs is my max today.....

 

[Michele50]

I just made a soap that took over 45 minutes to pour, made up of 5 colours and scented. I will post the recipe just as soon as I've rested a bit, since prepping everything took another hour and apparently 2hrs is my max today.....

Wow, that sounds great! Thank you.

 

[TheGecko]

SO WELL PUT! All of it!

Thank you. I forgot to add that even though my first goat milk soap was a failure (it overheated and was an oily mess), my second batch was perfect as was my third batch...the much wanted Black Raspberry Vanilla.

 

[Michele50]

Thank you. I forgot to add that even though my first goat milk soap was a failure (it overheated and was an oily mess), my second batch was perfect as was my third batch...the much wanted Black Raspberry Vanilla.

I'm very happy for you--success is sweet....smelling your Black Raspberry Vanilla soap through the internet
If my 5-year-old grandson can (@dibbles soap that was entered in Sep challenge), then so can I.

I remember my first GM soap. I always do so much reading/research before trying anything new (lol, back then EVERYTHING WAS NEW) that I put it down into an ice bath in our RV kitchen sink. Only 1 year in (used an online recipe), I was so worried about it becoming a volcano so I didn't really want it in our freezer/refrigerator. We had only just purchased our toy hauler and I didn't want the mess. Plus, I didn't want it to deal with sweating once removed from the freezer--not knowing enough I was just trying to head off issues b/4 they came upon me. I read so many good reviews on the FO (Energy) but, ICK, I didn't like it at all. Other than not liking the smell, I was happy with design and washing. I gave it all away, except for one bar for my hubby because he liked the scent.

It's funny how I'm not at all timid to use milk products in my soap now and I had so many thoughts of eruptions and burnt milk back then. I don't view failures as 'failure' they are learning experiences in disguise. That's what I hope @Soulboy1973 realizes and he pushes forward and onward.

I had one 3 weeks ago that I thought I might have to throw out but I'm so glad I gave it 3 days to saponify and solidify. It was still quite liquid looking 18 hours after pouring. Ended up being a nice teardrop design on a few bars--I still need practice! though. Sadly my friend ended up with what I was looking at after 24 hours and she threw her's out b/4 I could text her not to.

 

[dibbles]

When I watch, Julie (thanks for letting me know the mystery hands are that of a Lady) I see her hand whisk her lye into the oils, hand whisk her colours into the batter then same for her FO. I then watch her stick blend a little. That is the stage I'm getting wrong somehow. It may be my blender is more aggressive than hers or maybe due to inexperience and also not knowing what her batter consists of my better firms up so I can't pour the colours into the main mix then from there into the mould. I know the technique, I'm not good enough to know how the batter is acting. I will leave the stick blender in the cupboard from now on and stick with the whisk. If it takes a day longer to unmould but I get my swirls it's not too much of a hardship.

One other thing to keep in mind when watching YouTube videos is that a lot of the time they are making much larger batches which requires more time with the stick blender to reach emulsion than it does you or I making 1-3 pound batches. When I want to work with batter at emulsion I use the stick blender in very short - 1 to 2 second - bursts and stir between. Sometimes just letting the batter rest for a short time between the stick blender and stirring helps too.

 

[Marilyn Norgart]

I also go by how the batter sticks to my SB if it covers it and is a little bit thick I start my swirls--if I don't want swirls I SB until when I pull the SB out of the batter the drops don't sink in.

 

[Michele50]

Great point @dibbles! Great minds think alike:

".....in the beginning... I was watching folks who were making anywhere from 10 to 25 lbs of batter, while I was make 1 to 2 lbs. So yeah, I was WAY over blending my batter. And of course, it doesn't help that I have a BEAST of a stick blender, at least in comparison to the size of my batter.

It's good for those who are starting to hear this from more than one person because it can easily go unrealized, and there's a big difference.

 

[MGM]

Ok I've recovered enough to attach the recipe, in the goal of giving @Soulboy1973 a nice slow-moving recipe for tons of swirls. I'm serious when I say it took me 45 minutes to pour this thing....tomorrow I will write up the whole sordid ordeal and post pix, but for now, I can say that if this recipe was fluid for me for 45 minutes, it ought to last long enough to play around a bit.
Castor oil should be available at any Boots, I would think. If Grapeseed is too fancy, you can likely replace that with OO or Sunflower. I think it was Sunflower (or Safflower?) in the original recipe and someone on the board recommended Grapeseed.

ETA: @Soulboy1973 100% lard gives a slow-moving batter as well. Then you don't have to fool around with any oils: warm up your lard and you're done!

 

[Michele50]

"....https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.asp

I have so many informative sites bookmarked that my head spins; this is one of the gazillian I happened upon. With all the info everyone is giving @Soulboy1973, he'll be seeing success before too long........and he'll have a gazillian of booked marked sites. Eventually, he'll be doing things as 2nd nature and not even thinking about the process.

"....ETA: @Soulboy1973 100% lard gives a slow-moving batter as well. Then you don't have to fool around with any oils: warm up your lard and you're done!

I've haven't ever made 100% lard but I do know that the soap I make with it moves more slowly. I have more time to work than when I use some other hard/solid oils in place of it when I'm out; superb point because not all hard oils speed up trace. Some oils break the rules, just like all soft oils don't end up producing a soft bar. True Castile soap (100% OO) when cured long enough and/or is made with a steep water discount (high lye concentration) it creates a nice hard bar. Usually, soft oils won't do that but that's what's neat about the uniqueness of the oil.

 

[TheGecko]

Gecko, how do you manage to soap so cool with all your butters and hard oils? I only make small batches too, but I've been soaping hotter because the oils get cloudy when they cool off too much. I would love to soap at a cooler temp, but I've been worried that if I do, the hard oils might not get mixed in completely.

My apologies for missing this earlier.

I start by melting my Cocoa Butter until it’s softened, then I add in my Coconut and Palm Oils and heat until the Cocoa Butter, stir and then I add in my Shea Butter and stir until it is melted (it helps that I shred my Cocoa Butter and chop my Shea Butter into small pieces). I then add my Castor and Palm Oils, give everything a good stir, add my Kaolin Clay and set aside. I then weigh out my lye and frozen distilled water, mix well and add my Sodium Lactate.

Now I don’t know the science of it (yet), but if I walk way from my hard oils after I have melted them, they will eventually cool down enough to go cloudy as they start to resolidify. But once I mix them with my liquid oils and give them a good stir, they take a lot longer to cool down. Maybe it works like when you emulsify oil and water...it changes them.

Then I give the oils a couple of pulse to mix the clay throughout and pour in my Lye Solution, and give it a bit of a whisk and/or a couple of pulses and I’m good to go. The nice thing about soaping this cool is, so long as your additives (color, scent, etc) are well-behaved, you have plenty of time to work. Anyhoo...it just works for me.

 

[Kathymzr]

Thank you, that makes sense.

Stay the course. When there are no more oil slicks floating on the batter, give it a few more whisks, or stick blend saying Mississippi and stop. Forget fancy swirls! Stick to in pot swirls with a couple of colors! Do small batches! Give your soap away—it’s already far better than store-bought soap. My friends and family are happy to help me learn by trying my beginner soap. I enlist them to give me feedback. You are too hard on yourself!! And a one color soap with a light fragrance is always appreciated. People will look forward to your soap. Baby steps! And stick to well- behaved fragrance oils till your basic method is comfortable. With basic recipe, minimal colors, well- behaved fragrance in small batches, add one more variable at a time. Relax!!

 

[TheGecko]

Yeah it probably will but it will be flippin expensive with all those oils I can't just get off the shelf. Also it is probably more complicated for someone of my skill level.

Not at all. Considering I am not buying bulk unless you consider 1lb and 7lbs to be; cost per 1lb batch is $4.70USD. And if you don’t have access to Cocoa and Shea Butters, you can increase Coconut and Palm Oils to 25% and Olive Oil to 45%. And it’s not complicated unless you don’t know how to weigh your ingredients or push a button on the microwave. And if you look at Post 82, I even added details on how I prepare my recipe.

FYI - Until I got into Costco (membership warehouse store), I wasn’t getting ANY of my ingredients ‘off the shelf’, I was having to order them online. And the only thing I’m getting from Costco is Olive and Coconut Oil...I STILL have to order everything else. And no, I’m not made of money. If I was, then I would have a studio with killer tunes and be shredding a 55lb block of Cocoa Butter. Instead I’m using a cheese slicer that I modified to cut soap and old cookie sheets lined with freezer paper to cure my soaps.

At this point, my suggestion would be for you to take some time off from soap making and start over with the basics of soap making, and the why, wherefore and how. And when you watch videos, watch a LOT of different videos, read the descriptions, take notes. And while you’re improving/increasing your knowledge start picking up your ingredients here and there, or set aside some money every payday until you can purchase. And shop around.

 

[JoeyJ]

Try Zany's recipe:https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/zanys-no-slime-castile.72620/
I make it with 10% coconut oil and 5% castor. It's good!

I have used this with excellent results. Add sodium lactate also, and hot processed as well. It can be swirled, or pored into a mould, depending on how far you blend it to trace. All told its my most favourite, most gentle, soap

 

[Soulboy1973]

Ok I've recovered enough to attach the recipe, in the goal of giving @Soulboy1973 a nice slow-moving recipe for tons of swirls. I'm serious when I say it took me 45 minutes to pour this thing....tomorrow I will write up the whole sordid ordeal and post pix, but for now, I can say that if this recipe was fluid for me for 45 minutes, it ought to last long enough to play around a bit.
Castor oil should be available at any Boots, I would think. If Grapeseed is too fancy, you can likely replace that with OO or Sunflower. I think it was Sunflower (or Safflower?) in the original recipe and someone on the board recommended Grapeseed.

ETA: @Soulboy1973 100% lard gives a slow-moving batter as well. Then you don't have to fool around with any oils: warm up your lard and you're done!

Thank you so much for the recipe. It is a massive help when you know you are making a successful soap already made by an experienced soaper. It takes all the guess work out of the equation and you have the confidence to really go for it and also make a success of it. I'm really grateful for everybodies help on here. I feel lucky to have found this wonderful group of people.

 

[Michele50]

Thank you so much for the recipe. It is a massive help when you know you are making a successful soap already made by an experienced soaper. It takes all the guess work out of the equation and you have the confidence to really go for it and also make a success of it. I'm really grateful for everybodies help on here. I feel lucky to have found this wonderful group of people.

I SECOND that, this is such a tremendous group of people--ready to offer assistance and kindly correct errors if you make them. I consulted this forum for years before joining it, so glad I did; I've overcome 'much' of my bashfulness for speaking to (putting my comments out to) others but am still a bit backwards around others. I don't feel too awkward, though, here because there are soooo many kind and helpful folks they don't make me feel stupid if I happen to stick my foot in my mouth--and I have.

 

[penelopejane]

Yup, and I know many of us also might have our FO/EO proportioned out for our main container and our smaller containers of colored soap batter. If our design doesn't call for all of our batter to be placed in the mold at or near to the same time then waiting until right before it's needed (then adding the Fragrance) will give even more time to carry out the many steps of a more intricate design.

You make it sound as if all FOs accelerate. They don’t. Some even slow trace. A lot of people on the forum add FOs to the oils early on so you can control emulsion/trace better. Once emulsion is reached you don’t have to go further adding FOs.

Also the FO is well mixed in so it doesn’t leak out or form oily patches that a few people who add the FO at trace experience.